Talk:Java Edition Beta 1.8 Pre-release

Create the redirect

I'm sorry, but I just went ahead and created the redirect. I discussed beforehand all of the other times, but this time I really think it needed to be speedy created, and I really don't exactly want to have to discuss every single time MinecraftPhotos4U makes a move without leaving a redirect, when the redirect is obviously helpful and necessary. There are a ton of pages that link to it, it's been on that title for years, and it's an extremely likely search term. Not having the redirect is kind of breaking the wiki, considering that I'm sure tons of the readers are going to be searching for that title, so many links are broken, and come on, is it really worth it just to get rid of one redirect? What exactly is the problem with keeping it?-- Madminecrafter12^{Talk to me} 13:16, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

(I have some more information here) Also, remember that we need to think from the reader's point of view. From an editor's point of view, it may be "An unnecessary non-existent version redirect." However, from a reader's point of view, if we don't have the redirect, it may be, "Searched for a term that's been this way for years, then there's this weird red box that the page is deleted and I'm taken to some other page?" Readers really don't think as much as editors do (I certainly didn't when I was a reader), and for them, it's very likely that the more redirects there are, the better.-- Madminecrafter12^{Talk to me} 13:23, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

The thing is, this was never the official name of the version, so keeping this redirect is technically spreading false information. Also, none of the pages that linked to it were of any encyclopedic value, since they're either user pages either belonging to users who have never edited the wiki in years or proof-of-concept pages, or pages for highly inactive-looking translation projects. Is there truly any benefit in keeping a redirect linked to exclusively by pages harbouring extremely outdated information? - MinecraftPhotos4U (talk) 13:29, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't really see how keeping the redirect is spreading false information. It's simply creating a redirect of a page that's been that way for a long time, so that when readers search for the term they may know it as, they will be taken to the correct page. Creating the redirect does not mean that we're explicitly stating that the correct term is in fact Beta 1.8-pre1, and therefore is not spreading false information.-- Madminecrafter12^{Talk to me} 15:04, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Redirects do not have to be discussed to be created. If MinecraftPhotos4U (or anyone else) feels that a redirect is unnecessary, unwanted, or harmful, they should tag it for deletion and explain their reasoning. And in the case of titles that a page existed at for months or years prior to being moved, the title should be maintained as a redirect to prevent breaking links (especially links from external websites). I have already warned MinecraftPhotos4U about moving pages without leaving a redirect, this should be considered a further warning about acting as a unilateral gatekeeper of redirect creation or whatever. 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 21:17, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

@Dinoguy1000 and Majr: (pinging the first because they're part of the discussion, and the second because they seem to be active right now and experienced with handling redirects), do you think it would be okay if I removed the delete templates MinecraftPhotos4U put on the redirects, Beta 1.9-pre1, Beta 1.9-pre2, etc.? The reasons remain exactly the same as to why I created Beta 1.8-pre1 - broken links, been that way for years, and readers searching for that title. I don't want to just go ahead and do it without the approval of at least one user because this time MinecraftPhotos4U actually put delete templates on them with reasoning, which is what Dinoguy1000 told him to do.-- Madminecrafter12^{Talk to me} 12:39, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

If there's no mainspace links and the page has been moved for awhile (a year maybe?) it's probably okay to delete the redirect, but then also what issue is it being there causing? Search is broken anyway, so redirects cluttering it isn't relevant right now. –Majr ᐸ Talk
Contribs 14:41, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

@Majr: The primary reason why I want to keep the redirects is for searching. Even if this page was moved a year ago, it's still likely that people would search for Beta 1.9-pre1 and think that the page does not exist or wonder why the page only consists of some weird big red box. Besides, there's no good reason why it would hurt anything at all by keeping the redirects.-- Madminecrafter12^{Talk to me} 14:55, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Don't forget the fact you can link to the page in the deletion reason. If some poor soul ends up on the page through some 2011 news article or inactive translation project, then at least it'll direct them to the right page. - MinecraftPhotos4U (talk) 15:15, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

I know that's possible, but it's just so much easier to just go ahead and redirect it. There's really not any major reason as to why having the redirect would be a problem.-- Madminecrafter12^{Talk to me} 15:40, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

...I was agreeing with you. –Majr ᐸ Talk
Contribs 01:47, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed {{delete}} from the 6 redirects to the Beta 1.9 Pre-releases and turned them back into redirects. I apologize, MinecraftPhotos4U, if this is not what you wanted, but I believe that the benefits of having the redirects outweigh the disadvantages. Also, in my opinion, it's better to have a redirect one is unsure about than to delete it. I also would really appreciate it if users could discuss here before reverting my edits and adding the deletion templates back, as I do not wish to start an edit war.-- Madminecrafter12^{Talk to me} 19:08, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Can I mark them for deletion again in five years or so, since the community will have probably adapted to that change by then? - MinecraftPhotos4U (talk) 19:10, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Please don't take me as the final word (opinions from other editors are welcome), but personally I would say keep them - as new readers could still search for them, even if most of the community has adapted (although 5 years is quite a long time :)). Just out of curiosity, why are you so content to have them deleted? It doesn't harm anything major by keeping these redirects, and everything would be fine even if they were kept for all of eternity.-- Madminecrafter12^{Talk to me} 19:15, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

The rule of thumb with redirects is to leave them alone if they're not actively harmful. This single-minded focus of yours to get unused redirects deleted doesn't accomplish anything useful, and in many cases (as has been repeatedly pointed out) is itself harmful. 「ディノ奴千？！」^{? · ☎ Dinoguy1000} 21:11, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Really the main reason we wanted to start deleting redirects in the first place was to fix search suggestions. Since search is broken anyway this doesn't matter any more. If they're ever fixed, it would be better to make an extension to allow hiding particular redirects from the search suggestions. –Majr ᐸ Talk
Contribs 03:30, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

How come search is so terrible anyway? Isn't there like a Google custom search plugin that can be installed or something? – Nixinova 03:36, 13 May 2018 (UTC)