Talk:Tutorials/Flat survival

Discussion about building this article
(moved from User talk:Amatulic)

Ugh. I forgot about not being able to smelt. If you actually have to wait for ingots, it's even more of a grind! Those drops are extremely rare.

It is possible to get stone, but relies on even more rare chance of a fox spawning with an emerald in its mouth, and you use the emerald (if the fox drops it) to buy obsidian from a wandering trader, and this must happen enough times to build a portal to go to the Nether, where you can get some lava to make a cobblestone farm. I am aware of a fox spawning in a flat world but not in the most recent version of the game. Amatulic (talk) 14:44, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Oh, wait. It seems wandering traders don't sell obsidian. I thought they used to. Amatulic (talk) 14:46, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Bear in mind that once you get villagers, flat survival becomes much easier. You can trade with villagers to get emeralds and many other things you can not get otherwise, such as enchanting books, diamond armor and tools. You can therefore trade with the wandering trader to get saplings, flowers, dripstones, sand, etc. You can also make an iron farm with enough time and patience which can allow you to get anvils, hoppers, and lots of other stuff that are almost impossible to get other than spending days grinding for iron from zombies.
 * With the nether portal paradox, as far as I know, in 1.18 there is no possible way to go to the nether without downgrading your world, which is impossible in Bedrock edition. The only possible way to go to the nether is to create the world on beta 1.9 pre-release 3, which will give you a stack of obsidian (according to a video I saw by Mellow), and then you are stuck with the problem of lighting it. There is no way to get gravel in flat, so the only other way to light the portal is to use woodlighting, and there is no lava. I only know one method, which is to update the world to at least 1.17, and craft a lightning rod. Surround the lightning rod with wood and build a portal next to at least one of the pieces of wood, and on the other side of the portal place wood as well. Then you will need to wait for a thunderstorm to come and lightning to strike the rod and create fire, which will light the portal. So yeah, a bit complicated.
 * I think Mojang should add a way to get to the Nether in flat. The more obvious idea is having a wandering trader that sells lava buckets or obsidian. However, a more subtle idea is with lightning. You see, when lightning strikes a villager, it turns it into a witch and not a zombie villager, so it makes sense that pigs should turn into piglins instead of pigmen/zombie piglins. A piglin has 30 seconds before it turns into a zombie piglin, so within that time you can trade with the piglins and pray to get obsidian.
 * Something I've noticed is that you renamed the article to Bedrock Edition flat survival. I think it is unnecessary to have Bedrock Edition because there is a big difference between flat and superflat, and you can play flat on Java. Flat (not superflat) survival itself is barely different on Java then Bedrock, so it makes more sense to just make one article for both.
 * Anyways, that's just my thoughts on flat. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 20:23, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I found toycat's video. He didn't get as far as even getting enough iron for a bucket in the video I saw (2 hours long). Most of the videos I found about flat survival all involved setting yourself up with some key resources up front, like a lava bucket and cauldron.
 * Anyway, I fleshed out the tutorial a bit with my thoughts.
 * Because Java flat allows for structures, I felt it was appropriate to rename, but if there's no difference (I don't play Java so I don't know) it can be renamed back. An administrator needs to do that though, because the original name is now a redirect.
 * Can you think of any way to get more lighting besides the four initial torches? Amatulic (talk) 21:37, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think you watched the right video by ibxtoycat, I think you watched the livestream. The video you should watch is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_SeB7u4HV4, the 100 days of surviving in a flat world with only a bonus chest.
 * The main way you can get lighting is from villagers, e.g. clerics who sell you glowstone dust (which can be crafted into glowstone). BobJeffyJeff (talk) 08:35, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Wait. You can't get a cleric. But you can get glowstone from witches. I'll try to find another light source. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 08:37, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yo dude, I think you forgot about wandering traders. In the article, you said that sugar cane is unobtainable, but once you get villagers, you can sell them crops or iron (from an iron golem farm) to get emeralds. You can then use emeralds to trade with the wandering trader and get many rare items such as sugarcane, sand, moss blocks, dripstones, pumpkins, melons, live fish, kelp, cactus, ice, coral, crop seeds, lily pads, sea pickles, all flowers and dyes, all saplings and ice. You can then farm most of the items I have mentioned, e.g. you can bonemeal flowers you can't get otherwise to get more of them, or grow sugarcane to get more. The full list (although I have practically said all the useful items) is here: https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Trading#Bedrock_Edition_sales. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 18:39, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, about the light source problem, the only light source that you can use is lanterns. You can buy them from librarians, and since sugar cane is obtainable, you can get lanterns. I also thought about candles but I realised you can't light them since there is no way to get flint or gravel in flat. See ya. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 18:46, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I corrected the sugar cane thing soon after I wrote it. I see you also have been making improvements. I watched toycat's other video. The guy got lucky a few times, things could have easily gone the other way, and he admitted he got lucky too. Amatulic (talk) 22:37, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Did you watch the 100 days video or a livestream?
 * Also I figured out how to light candles. Candles are crafted with honeycomb and string. You have a chance to get bees by growing a tree next to a flower. You can get a flame bow from fishing and if you shoot an arrow that is on fire at the candle it will light. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 08:15, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, I watched it. The problem with the candle idea is that you have no way to prevent the bees from attacking you, because you have no way to make a campfire. You need coal or charcoal. Amatulic (talk) 13:52, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Ugh, I completely forgot about that. Btw, I'm working on the raid part of the page right now, and I hope you like it. Can you add the tutorial to the tutorial pages? BobJeffyJeff (talk) 14:05, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I just realised that I am a complete moron. I forgot that weaponsmith and toolsmith villagers cannot be obtainable because the job site blocks require stone. The only other way I can think of to get diamond armor and a diamond sword is from a zombie that spawns with it, which is so rare it is practically impossible. Can you think of another possible way?
 * Also, there is a section about raid farming, and since you have created the tutorial page about it, do you know any designs that can give you bad omen while a raid is happening (similar to the Java designs) that you can make with the resources available? BobJeffyJeff (talk) 19:27, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Toolsmith workstation doesn't require stone. I already checked every job site block and listed only those that are obtainable.
 * Offhand, I am not sure if you can get Bad Omen during a raid in Bedrock. I'd have to do some research on that. Amatulic (talk) 04:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Did I say toolsmith? I meant armorer. Sorry my bad.
 * Also about the honey thing, I remembered you can get campfires from fishermen villagers. You don't need a campfire to harvest honey and honeycomb from bees. If you harvest honey without campfires, the bees just get so angry at you that you stole their life's work that they want to kill themselves in a failed attempt to kill you. Campfires prevent them from getting mad by putting a fire hazard under their home.
 * And about raid farming, I think it might be possible. My friend specializes in raid farms and he even designed a 32-raid stacking raid farm, so I might ask him if you can. The Java farms work because it pushes you up far enough away from the villager that you can get bad omen, because raids spawn in a certain radius from the player no matter how far away the player is from the village. It might happen in Bedrock as well but I gotta check that. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 09:43, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

I like the way this article has turned out. I'll leave the raid farming part up to you. All that is needed is to point at Tutorials/Raid farming and add anything that is specific to flat worlds (like with iron golem farming on an alternative way to kill the iron golems and how to prevent mobs from spawning in a village without light sources).

I have moved this article back to the original name because it's no longer exclusively Bedrock Edition. Amatulic (talk) 15:22, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for contributing on this article! BobJeffyJeff (talk) 15:40, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Can you really have achievements on a flat world created in 1.19? (If so, then I will have to restart my flat world.) BobJeffyJeff (talk) 10:46, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The 1.19 is a guess. The tag should probably be removed because it's just speculative. There is a new UI in beta that doesn't force a Flat world into Creative, and whenever that is released, we'll have to do a bit of rewriting of this tutorial. Amatulic (talk) 05:07, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Iron farming
It occurred to me that iron farms always use lava to kill the golems. Without lava, you have to kill the golems yourself. Of course, this is easy if you use water to channel the golems into a space where they cannot fight back. The problem is that when you do this, your village reputation goes down, and eventually this destroys your ability to trade with villagers.

You need a way to kill golems without you attacking them, and without lava. I can think of two possibilities:
 * 1) If the golem is forced into a cactus, it might deal damage slowly until the golem dies.
 * 2) Guiding the golem toward a skeleton trapped in a boat could work. Getting the skeleton into the boat and protecting yourself from it while  you work could be a challenge though. Just building a wall around it is dangerous.

I added these techniques to the article. Any other ideas? Amatulic (talk) 07:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)


 * You can get campfires from fishermen, so you can kill iron golems with them. I also realised that if you extinguish a campfire you get 4 charcoal, which you can use to craft 16 torches. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 09:46, 20 May 2022 (UTC)


 * But only two campfires per fisherman. In any case, I've revised the iron farm section with your suggestion. Amatulic (talk) 05:21, 24 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't understand what you are talking about. Fishermen can restock and therefore restock campfires. They use a barrel which is easily obtainable. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 19:15, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Disregard what I wrote, I was being an idiot due to the survival world I've been playing in for the past 3 years has no villagers in it within thousands of blocks of me (island survival / ocean monument game). So I forgot about the resupply after the trade is disabled. Yes, it's actually been that long since I traded with a villager. In fact, I started playing that world about the time Village & Pillage came out, so I have never traded with a villager under the new system of tiered trades, if you can believe that.
 * And I'mm still playing it. It's been a one-weekend-per-month thing since it started because that's all I have time for. I wrote Tutorials/Zombie villager farming because I want to create a village underground near my zombie spawner. All I'm missing is a potion of weakness, but since I rarely see a witch, I need to go to the Nether to get ingredients. I'm still making preparations for that. Amatulic (talk) 02:17, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm more of a speedrunner, and normally when I create a world I kill the ender dragon a few days after. Right now I'm playing on an SMP with my friends. We haven't beaten the ender dragon yet but my friend really wants the dragon egg, but so do I. I have a plan to kill and respawn the ender dragon so it looks like it hasn't been killed yet when we go to the End together. It includes finding a separate stronghold and building a secret nether portal just below the roof of the nether. I'm kind of looking forward to it, I might even get an elytra and some shulker boxes. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 07:14, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Also btw today is the day I will kill the dragon BobJeffyJeff (talk) 07:15, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

New section help
So I created a section at the bottom of the page called "blocks and items obtainable in flat without cheating". I want to add a list of all blocks and items obtainable (like the one in the Skyblock page) but I have no clue on how to do that. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 11:20, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
 * If you're referring to Tutorials/Skyblock, that list is badly done. There is absolutely no need for tables to display simple lists. Lists are not tabular data. Furthermore mobile devices with small displays can't display it well. It should be just subheadings with a list under each one. When I get around to it, I'll clean up that mess in the Skyblock tutorial.
 * I split the list here into what I thought were appropriate sections. That's how the Skyblock list should look. Amatulic (talk) 19:40, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for tidying the lists. Can you help me add all the obtainable items since there are a lot? BobJeffyJeff (talk) 08:38, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I think we should restrict the list only to items that are readily available or are essential/useful.
 * I realized that there is a way to get lava with no cheats, and I have added it in three places in the article. If you cure a zombie villager and it happens to become and armorer, if you are able to trade with it up to journeyman, it can sell you a lava bucket. The chance is extremely low, you need a lot of luck, and you must already have another villager from which to get emeralds. But even after you've bred a bunch of villagers, it may still be worth going through the agony of trying to cure more zombie villagers to see what you get. Amatulic (talk) 07:55, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, you can't get a lava bucket from armorers. I checked on the trading wiki page and it is not possible, at least on Bedrock (you sell armorers lava buckets to get emeralds). There is no way to get lava or obsidian in flat. I've tried and researched, it's impossible. I have reversed your edit. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 16:40, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, you're right. I misread the table. More reverting was needed than what you did; I cleaned it up.
 * You can, however, get certain stone blocks if you happen to get a stone mason from a zombie villager. That might be useful for creeper-proofing. Amatulic (talk) 17:40, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

About that section, it might be simpler instead to list the things one cannot obtain without cheats. Amatulic (talk) 17:43, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Uh I don't know about that since we have already listed most of the items obtainable. It also makes more sense to list what you can get then what you cannot get. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 07:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, then just don't duplicate lists that already exist in other articles (like a complete list of items from fishing or trading isn't required). Amatulic (talk) 07:19, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I thought about it, and I think it would make more sense to add items obtainable from those methods. Obviously I didn't add everything from the fishing lists, such as bowls and leather, but there are some items which you can only get from fishing or are extremely rare outside fishing, which would be helpful for survival, such as infinite fish and an enchanted bow (which can be used to cook food before you have a campfire). As for the wandering trader list, I just tidied it up and put everything in alphabetical order. BobJeffyJeff (talk) 06:10, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Update for Java Edition
In Tutorials/Superflat survival, Amatulic had remove all of the information for Java Edition with the reason: "all of this is covered in Tutorials/Flat survival".

This page said: "Because there is only one kind of Flat world in Bedrock Edition, this tutorial is written from that perspective, but most of the information here applies to Java Edition also." But that not true in some part, because some of the features only work for Bedrock, but not work for Java and vice versa. For example: I really hope it's updated for Java Edition. Thank you. Brain180 (talk) 13:12, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Vegetation (like sapling, seeds, mushroom, carrot, potato...) do spawn on bonus chest in Bedrock, but not in Java (biggest disadvantage for Java).
 * In Java, once the player gains the Hero of the Village status after defeating a raid, villagers give them a discount for their trades and throw them gifts related to their profession.
 * In Bedrock Edition, a golem can spawn if there are at least 20 beds and 10 villagers.


 * I've made some changes. Of those points you listed, the critical one is about vegetation items in the bonus chest, and I've added clarifications in places. Your second point about Hero of the Village is true for both editions, not just Java, and Hero of the Village isn't even mentioned in the section about raids anyway. About iron farms, there isn't any need to repeat what's already described elsewhere; there is one farm suggested for Bedrock Edition (and I clarified it's for Bedrock) but overall the farm you make depends on what edition you're playing. If you know of a particular farm design that would be best for the flat survival environment, you can add a description of it (but please avoid adding a video of an iron farm, because this article isn't about iron farming). Amatulic (talk) 14:13, 5 July 2022 (UTC)