User talk:Dinoguy1000

Signature fix
Allo, I've done some fixes to your signature as it was causing issues on Opera (specifically, the lazy html tags and lack of "" on attributes were causing green text for the rest of the page). When I get my bot up and running, I'll do a site scan for your sig and apply the fixes globally. In the meantime, just say no to lazy html tags! :P --Gnu32 17:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Aah, sorry about that. I originally used the version that I use on Wikia, which didn't leave out attribute quotes or closing tags, since I wasn't sure if HTML Tidy was installed here or not. After experimenting, it looked like it was, so I switched to the much leaner (and much more invalid) version I use on Wikipedia, since Tidy should fill in the missing quotes and closing tags itself (there haven't been any complaints about my sig on WP in Opera, so I assume Tidy actually does what it's supposed to there). If it's not too much trouble, could you play around with my sig, removing quotes and closing tags, to see if there's a shorter version that plays nice in Opera? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:48, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

thankyouthankyouthankyou
What a coinky-dink. Just as I hit the "Save Changes" button to add Mystery Block to the proper "Removed" section, I get hit with the ol' Edit Conflict. Checked the history and saw you fixed my silly mistake. Thank you kindly :) ''(I has an excuse! I only had 3hrs of sleep last night, and didn't notice the original "Removed" section)'' That Canadian Guy 19:04, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Heh, no problem. =) Truth be told, if I had my way, that template (and the other navboxes) would look quite different, at least in the edit box, but that's just me (and really has nothing to do with your message ;P ). 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 19:06, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Believe me, if I had the time (which I don't), I'd go purchase some cheap site hosting and make my own Minecraft Wiki. And things would be alot different. Much more professional looking, as if it was a Wiki for the FBI (no offence to this Wiki, I'm just a professional kinda guy), and I'd probably do things differently such as splitting up the Mob page into separate pages for each mob (I wouldn't care if half of 'em were stubs. Stubs are awesome.). That Canadian Guy 19:11, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Without knowing how you feel about Wikia, let me point out the Minecraft Wikia. ;) 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 19:24, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


 *   Wikia. Wikia can go   itself. I loved how they introduced the NEW WIKIA SKIN :O, then within like a month of it being released, half of the bigger Wikis (Such as the Pikmin Wikia) said "Screw this" and ended up getting their own site hosting. Wikia just screwed itself over big time. I did use Adblock Plus to get rid of all the Wikia ads on the Monaco theme, but their new theme is just ridiculous and overcrowded with ads. That Canadian Guy 20:45, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I figured you might be like that. =D I can tell you that the main reason the YGO Wikia didn't also leave was because we decided we probably wouldn't be able to compete with our own work (and the fact that we'd have to find a host that could handle the traffic didn't help matters any, either). 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 21:06, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Er, to address an above point, isn't the mob page already split out into separate pages? --JonTheMon 21:11, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Food
Whoa. Nice edit. --R ocĸetor talk  07:49, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, took me a while. =) I'm now trying to decide whether a refactoring of the table would justify the columns it would add. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 07:51, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Why?
Why did you undo my changes? Where was the fail? --Yulex2 03:44, 19 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I perhaps worded my edit summary too strongly (especially considering you are a new contributor here), but I reverted because of the change you made to the template's CSS and the fact that you used Sprite directly instead of using BlockLink, resulting in a lot of extra code. In addition, we don't have an article on the Spider Web, or, as far as I know, any sourceable information on its intended purpose. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 04:46, 19 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok I understand now. --Yulex2 10:44, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Reddit
Yes, I am the same NipplesOfTheFuture from reddit :D I'm also GhettoGreen on Minecraft, but I don't play on nerd.nu as much as I used to (I have a private server I play on with friends). --NipplesOfTheFuture 18:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

"Sublime" splash
Care to explain why you deleted my explanation? "Really not sure about either of those" isn't exactly a fortress of logic, especially given that you could've confirmed mine at least with two seconds of Wikipedia.

Sublime (literary) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The sublime is a form of expression in literature in which the author refers to things in nature or art that affect the mind with a sense of overwhelming grandeur or irresistible power. It is calculated to inspire awe, deep reverence, or lofty emotion, by reason of its beauty, vastness, or grandeur.[1] When thinking of the literary sublime, most scholars point to the Romantic Period as the age in which it flourished. In Romantic poetry, authors often referred to mountains or deep crags, things that they considered both awe-inspiring and terrifying, in order to express the literary sublime.

CK 09:54, 1 May 2011 (UTC)


 * While that may have been the original usage of "sublime", its meaning has shifted since it started being used (at least, in my experience) - I have never heard it used in a way that would suggest the object or experience being described as "sublime" was anything like "awe-inspiring and terrifying"... If you disagree with my (admittedly sketchy) logic, though, feel free to readd your explanation to the article; I won't remove it again. ;) 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 13:25, 1 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The only real shift in meaning it's undergone to my knowledge is a colloquialization- it's used to add a superlative quality to a description that doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with supernatural wonder and terror. However, to me it's pretty clear that Notch intended the original sense of the word: one of the paintings in the game is a facsimile of the foreground character in Caspar David Friedrich's Der Wanderer über dem Nebelmeer, a really excellently prime example of the Romantic sublime in art. (It's here if you're interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderer_above_the_Sea_of_Fog) I think I'll add the explanation again, with perhaps a slight re-phrasing to make it a little clearer. CK 15:45, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Template:items
The Bowl isn't a tool: it's only used in the crafting recipe of the mushroom stew. If the bowl mustn't be on the "raw materials" because is crafted from planks, why the stick is in the "raw materials" section? Also, I added water and lava buckets because they are tools and they're two types of bucket--Ua 08:39, 29 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The group labels on Items aren't necessarily hard-and-fast rules for the items in those groups. There are several items besides sticks in the "Raw Materials" group that aren't really raw materials, for instance. This is done deliberately, for convenience and brevity (if the group labels perfectly described the groups, we'd need twice as many to cover the same items, easily!).
 * As I said in my edit summary, Water Bucket redirects to Water, and Lava Bucket to Lava. Neither of these has its own article, so I'd argue against their inclusion in the navbox. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 08:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

1.8 Content pages and template tags
Thanks for all the fixes on all those tags etc on the Melon, seeds, etc pages. When it comes to content and wording, I'm pretty good, but tags, administrative rights, and reasoning for things exclusive to wikis, i don't really know that much about. --HexZyle 03:36, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * No problem. I have a reasonable amount of experience working on wikis, from both sides of the admin bit, so feel free to ask me about anything you might need help with or explained. =) 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 06:31, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Wheat Seeds - template:block yeah exactly. (I wasn't actaully supposed to change the template, that was an accident while i was previewing it to see how fail it is) User:Cool thinks that Wheat Seeds are a seed, not a block. --HexZyle 02:31, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Semantically, he's right, but until we see proof that the game treats Wheat Seeds (and the other seeds) specifically as a seed block, they should be left as "block". 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 02:35, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

replacing for ((BlockGrid))
hi, since wyn was uncooperative, i tried it with replace; this is what i’ve got so far:

User:Flying sheep/Template:BlockGrid (look at the source)

the problem is that the limit is hit, but BlockSprite as well as a &lt;td> hast to fit into the replaced section. both would need nearly 400 chars, and i’d have to recreate BlockSprite. :( – Flying sheep 19:52, 1 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it would work if you put the table cell in a subtemplate (e.g. User:Flying sheep/Template:BlockGrid/cell)? I haven't used #replace enough to really understand how it plays with transclusions, and I haven't used the variables extension at all, so no idea how it actually works, transclusion or no. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 20:35, 1 September 2011 (UTC)


 * hah, nope, it expands templates before replacing. and circumventing that would need escape sequences, which are not implemented – Flying sheep 21:04, 1 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm... Well, it'd be considerably uglier and would require proper escaping, but you could try using wikitable syntax instead of HTML tables. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 21:46, 1 September 2011 (UTC)


 * no, this way, we have fewer characters for the table syntax, so almost solely the blocksprite counts, but it is still way more than 30 characters (more like 300) – Flying sheep 22:34, 1 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Is there any way to store the cell in a variable and use the variable to get past the length limit, or does that result in race conditions regarding when various parts get parsed? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 22:41, 1 September 2011 (UTC)


 * it’s not much of a race as  seems to always win. our limitations are: 30 chars of html code can be inserted per occurrence per replacement; we can loop over all arguments as many times as we want. what we can do is to first replace each char per tablerow (e.g. aXXXXa) with itself and a series of funky symbols. for each named argument(e.g. a=air, X=stone), we replace each funky symbol with a 30-char-chunk of html, and the char (a or X) with the coordinates calculated by a extracted part of BlockSprite. X( – Flying sheep 14:07, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yep, short anything else (and between the two of us, you've already tried and I've already suggested most all the other options at our disposal), all we have left is nested #replaces (and hoping that they're not as hard on the server as the loop). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:37, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The best would be to allow admin-approved php templates: thouse would be faster than anything written in this sorry excuse for a programming language (wikisyntax, that is, not php ;)), and also easier to write and read. – Flying sheep 12:24, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * PHP as the "best" is most definitely a matter of opinion; in my experience, just about everyone seems to hate it equally (but then, I don't know the language myself, so I can't say if everyone is just joking around or what). ;) There are extensions to allow Lua (and maybe other languages) to be used for templates, but AFAIK all of these present security and denial-of-service risks. A new parser, with support for proper programming, has been on the table for years, but it's a very hard problem (especially considering all the little edge cases in the current parser (which is not so much a parser as a haphazard pile of regexes piled up over the years) that it has to replicate), so no significant progress has been made until just recently on a parser rewrite, and it's hard to tell when anyone will finally get around to working on adding programming support in a secure manner.
 * Before you really start blaming wikimarkup for anything, though, you have to remember that it was never intended as a programming language - per it's name, it's a markup language. ;) ParserFunctions (and, later, StringFunctions and the myriad other extensions that add various programming paradigms to wikimarkup) arose because people insisted on trying to use wikimarkup as a programming language, but it is still not one, and the author of ParserFunctions has repeatedly said that PF was a mistake he wishes he'd never made. =D 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:41, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * well, i don’t know how to program PHP, since i was appalled by the language design, but since mediawiki runs on it (and all extensions are written in it), it would be bloat to add yet another script/template language parser. lua is pretty small, and i would dig every proper template/programming/markup language instead of mediawiki. of course the security risks are there, and i have no proper solution for it, but allowing to give individual users a “is trusted with programming” permission would help against crappy templates. the logic could be separated from the data and the markup template, so that every user can, say, add new entries to BlockSprite and change the appearance of it’s components, but only trusted programmers can edit the logic.
 * my specific proposal would be:
 * every template has 1. one markup template, 2. an optional script in a programming/scripting language, and 3. an optional css file
 * the markup template uses mustache, and is thus logic-less. it receives a dictionary/hashtable and uses it to replace tags in it.
 * if a script is present, it gets run on the argument dictionary, before it is handed to the template. the dictionary can contain arbitrary markup, so the script can do anything (e.g. fill a almost empty template with just one to-be-replaced tag in it)
 * if a css file is present, it is applied to the markup file. it’s also a mustache template that receives the optionally processed dict, so colors and stuff can be inserted there
 * as arbitrary markup can be passed in the argument dict to the markup template, a template can also use a set of optional sub-templates.
 * – Flying sheep 10:27, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Most proposals for Lua et al. parsers (and most extensions written to do as much) have featured an external parser for the functionality, rather than writing one from scratch; this is something the MW devs and Wikimedia do not want, however, since it would mean adding an external dependency to MediaWiki that most servers would then have to install (as opposed to PHP, which basically everyone and their grandmother already has). This is why we don't already have something like this in core MW; currently, the best bet looks to be either a home-brewed language (in which case it would likely end up as an extension of the new parser being worked on) or a home-brewed parser for the chosen language, written in PHP and distributed with MW.
 * There is no effective way to limit who could write such templates in the current MW setup, and changing the software to allow such functionality would require major revisions (all AFIAK). Much more effective than that would be auto-death to any template that takes more than a certain amount of time or server resources to run.
 * I honestly don't know nearly enough to be able to comment on specific proposals for what a new template architecture may look like; despite talking a big game, I don't actually know any "real" programming languages (I've tried two or three times to learn C, and though I've gotten further on each attempt, they've all ultimately been non-starters), so I can't comment on what programming paradigms may be useful in the context of MediaWiki templates. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:01, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

interesting, but this conversation goes too far into meta-metaness :D

so mediawiki didn’t really go anywhere in this direction for years, and there isn’t a mature plugin we could use here, right?

for learing how to program, i’d recommend python, because it is designed for readability and the principle of least surprise. – Flying sheep 11:38, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Something like that, yeah.
 * Python is actually what I've been looking at for my next try; I just haven't gotten around to installing the interpreter and getting started. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:57, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * it’s a shame that so much energy is wasted both into programming with a shitty system line mediawiki’s template syntax, as well as executing this stuff. a programming language in a markup language parsed by a scripting language interpreted by a interpreter outputs html interpreted by the browser… ‒ Flying sheep 20:23, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * it doesn’t work. any idea? User:Flying sheep/Template:BlockGrid – Flying sheep 14:23, 15 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I'm pretty well out of ideas for it at this point, though it doesn't help that I don't really know how the looping and var extensions to the wikimarkup work. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:41, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

JS
Did someone say hint hint? I might try stealing your script and seeing if it works for me. – ultradude25 ( T at 07:06, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that, I finally figured out what the problem was. I'd forgotten, but Wikipedia's copy of MediaWiki:Youhavenewmessages was updated with a span with a unique ID that the script could search for so it wouldn't have to iterate through all the elements looking for a class name; the same has not been done on our copy. I'll fix this by using an older version of the script; make sure you grab that one if you're interested in it. ;) 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 07:14, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I could just edit that so it does that have id. Just tell me what to put in. – ultradude25 ( T at 07:25, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Duh, why don't I just look at Wikipedia's one? Ugh, I don't think my brain is on. The updated script should work now. – ultradude25 ( T at 07:28, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * That's about how I felt when I realized the problem I was having with the script. =D Could you delete User:Dinoguy1000/newmessageshistory.js for me, since it's not needed now? 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 07:31, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Done, now if only someone would edit my talk page so I can see the script in action... – ultradude25 ( T at 07:33, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * You two make me laugh :D (in a good way!) -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  08:43, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * If you can't have fun while editing, what's the point? =D 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 08:44, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Weee promotions
Congratulations! – ultradude25 ( T at 09:37, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Heh, thanks! =D 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 09:40, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Wiki-fu
You know how the delete/undelete, move and protect/unprotect options are hidden in the little drop-down next to the search bar? Is there any way to get them out of there so they're on the normal menu bar like the other options? I know there's some crazy javascript going on that makes the options that are already out retreat into the drop-down when there is not enough screen-space, but I have about 1000px left in that area, which is plenty of room for all of them to show at once. I'd also like to change the watch/un-watch star image back to text if possible.

Think you'd be able to help me out? – ultradude25 ( T at 13:34, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * DropDownToTabs should take care of your dropdown woes. I'm not aware of any scripts that change the star back to a Watch/Unwatch tab; I didn't see any on a quick grep through WikiProject User scripts/Scripts, though surely someone has made one. My own JS-fu isn't particularly well-developed, so I'm not sure I'd really be able to write a script to do that. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:47, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm the script doesn't seem to be applying. Do the tabs have a different name from wikipedia or something?
 * The star/text is an option chosen in localsettings.php ($wgVectorUseIconWatch), so there should be a way to get the style used when that's turned off, and replace the image version's style with it. Somehow. – ultradude25 ( T at 00:27, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * You can (sort of) fix the dropdown-to-tabs script by adding the line  to the top of your vector.js file; I think we'd need the wiki upgraded to 1.17 for it to work completely correctly. I'll ask Wyn if she can have the tech team look into an update.
 * Now that I look, it's actually quite straightforward to replace the star icon with the old text. Add the following code to your vector.js file:

$(function { $("#ca-watch").addClass("collapsible")   .removeClass("icon"); $("#ca-unwatch").addClass("collapsible")    .removeClass("icon"); });
 * Note that this, as written, requires the above fix at the top of your vector.js file, and it will result in the tab having the same appearance as the above fix when you click the "watch"/"unwatch" link; I don't know how to fix that (but again, an upgrade to MW 1.17 may be sufficient). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 08:02, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Alright, well it seems to almost work, the text is just too big, but that's nothing that a little bit of css can't fix up. Thanks a lot! – ultradude25 ( T at 08:14, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yep, that's what I was referring to with the "sort of" qualifier. =) I played around with the tabs for a while in Chrome's element inspector seeing if I could find the source of the weird styling, though to no avail, but I didn't try actually fixing it up more (I can, though, if you get stuck and need any help). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 08:21, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I know how to fix them, but it's not a CSS problem it's the placement of the span tags. The javascript has put them outside the link, whereas they should be inside. After manually doing that from firebug it's almost perfect. The only issue left is the double border between the two lists, and that only happens because they're separate lists. I don't suppose there is anyway to change the javascript to insert the span in the right place, and move them into the same list as the others? – ultradude25 ( T at 10:04, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, is that it? Chrome's data inspector showed the spans placed inside the links like they should be, and in my experience, it has always shown the internal representation of a page's source after rendering and scripts. Wonder what's up with that...
 * The two lists (surrounded by divs) are present in the unaltered HTML as well, and there's no double border there... Perhaps a  or   on div#p-cactions would fix it? 「 ディノ 奴  千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:34, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Good idea, I hadn't thought about negative margins. This is what the layout looks like to me. The span tags are around the link, not in it. The fact that the placement of a span with no styling or id/class makes a difference means the CSS is referencing the span somewhere (something like div.vectorMenu span { };), so it's possible that if I change it to not include the span, it might work. – ultradude25 ( T at 22:32, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Hah! Got it. Take a look! – ultradude25 ( T at 23:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Aah, very cool. =D Wyn said 1.17 will probably happen next week sometime, so you'll have to see then if you still need all these fixes. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 01:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Vector improvements
I've been spamming up your talk page working on some vector improvements, to make it use less images, be better looking if you have images disabled and even replace some images with CSS3 gradients.

Here's how it originally looked with images disabled: And here's how it looks now:  As you can see, it's a lot closer to the normal wiki, plus when images are enabled, the wiki looks identical to how it looked originally. :)

Unfortunately the way the vectortabs are set up makes it pretty impossible to replace them with gradients (the border gradient overwrites the middle, and gradients seem to ignore z-index).

Now to get to the actual point... do you have any suggestions for more images that can be replaced with CSS/CSS3 gradients? You could also try it out yourself, it's good to get people on other browsers to try it to make sure it works for them. :) – ultradude25 ( T at 04:29, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Not offhand, no... I never browse with images disabled, so I really don't know just what the Vector skin uses images for.
 * I played around with the styles some in Chrome and they seemed to match up with your screenshot (though, interestingly enough, Chrome - even the latest dev build - doesn't seem to support the actual "linear-gradient" CSS3 property value). =)
 * I wonder if the gradients might be made to work properly by using multiple backgrounds (does FF support that yet?)... I've not played with it myself, so I don't really understand how they work (or, at least, how they're supposed to). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 05:15, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually I looked a bit closer, and it seemed to be a problem with repeating. I may actually be able to get it to work. I originally assumed the tab-break image was just repeating behind all the tabs, with the tab fade overlaying it. I'll have another go, I should be able to also change the sidebar divider image to a gradient. – ultradude25 ( T at 05:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Aha! Got it working. I had to set background-size. Aside from a few images that would be impossible to make out of gradients, the page now looks identical to how it does with images on. And when they are on, there's only a base of 7 images (technically 8, page-break.png is still loading for some reason, need to find what's still referencing it), which is the logo, favicon, user icon, 2 arrows, search icon and curse logo. :D
 * I'm hoping to get at least the non-CSS3 things in MediaWiki:Vector.css at some point (I'll wait for the upgrade first, to see what's changed in the theme), even if I only saved 2KB of images, considering just how much bandwidth this site gets, it could end up saving a few GB. – ultradude25 ( T at 07:45, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * You can replace the arrow icons with pure CSS as well (at least, I think; it depends on exactly how the markup is set up), through judicious use of border-width - see http://jonrohan.me/guide/css/creating-triangles-in-css/ if you're ready to have your mind blown. =D 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 12:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Huh, I knew the borders were drawn as angles, but I never considered using it to create triangles; that's crazy. – ultradude25 ( T at 13:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Although, I can't really see how I'd implement it. The sidebar uses a background-image for the arrow, so the border doesn't really fit in properly. – ultradude25 ( T at 13:36, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It gets even crazier when you realize you can use basically the same trick to draw any angle (thought I had a link for that, but guess not). ;)
 * That's what it looked like when I glanced at the code, but I wasn't sure. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 13:40, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia culture
So (completely random), since you were/are an editor at wikipedia, I'm curious about a possible perception that Wikipedia editors are somewhat..... elitist when going to other, smaller wikis. Can you see how that might be, or is the perception completely off/people are people? P.S. Not talking about you. --JonTheMon 18:52, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I can definitely understand why there could be such a perception; Wikipedia has developed some very high standards for its articles, and these will become ingrained into pretty much any editor who spends time working there. To be sure, former Wikipedia editors are, therefore, likely to have high standards when editing at other wikis, but it's important to note the distinction between that and actually being elitist. Generally, though, Wikipedia editors are just people, and most of the real vets hate being treated as anything other than people when they're just editing (as you might imagine, editors with admin and other user rights tend to be venerated by those without any such user rights, particularly by newer editors). To be sure, there are those who revel in their privileges, but they're pretty well outnumbered by editors who see them for what they are (extra tools to aid in maintaining the wiki), and those editors, when just editing, only do so in the capacity of editors, rather than as admins, or bureaucrats, or what-have-you. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 19:52, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * What about decision making and "not rocking the boat" of how a wiki was being run before they show up? --JonTheMon 20:18, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * As far as that's concerned, I can only speak from my own, personal experience (since I've never made a point of following other Wikipedians onto other wikis; that'd just be creepy *cue creepy face* =D ). One of the things that Wikipedia culture values very highly is being bold; this extends from just making edits to articles instead of first asking permission, all the way up to suggesting radical changes or additions to core site policies (though these are unlikely to actually be implemented, for a variety of reasons). This policy has definitely come to be one of the guiding principles I use on wikis, and it means I am, perhaps, rather less hesitant than many to suggest changes to the way a wiki has historically done things - even very major changes. I do, at least, try to avoid making such suggestions when they don't amount to much more than subjective, stylistic preferences, but if they have tangible, objective ramifications (such as the naming discussion here, or, more generally, the question of whether and how/when/how frequently to use references), you can bet I'll not just be suggesting, but boldly pushing, actively advocating, for the changes.
 * On the other hand, just because I'm from Wikipedia doesn't mean I always know what works best in a given situation; my suggestions should be weighed on their own merits rather than simply accepted or rejected because "it's what that crazy Wikipedia guy is harping on about". =D 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 20:53, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm, so running into a wiki that is "slower" and less bold than that is quite the recipe for friction, eh? Well, that's quite insightful. --JonTheMon 21:21, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, smaller wikis tend to move much faster then Wikipedia. If it weren't for the fact that Wikipedia's deletion process, for instance, encourages discussions to be closed after a week, there would be plenty of discussions that would stretch on for months (and, even with this encouragement, there still are on occasion). This is largely due to the sheer number of editors participating on Wikipedia - whereas a wiki comparable to this one may have two or three dozen "core" editors and maybe as many as a couple thousand sometime contributors, Wikipedia's core edior group alone easily counts in the hundreds, and that's with a near-constant decline in the number of editors since 2006. Naturally, with all these editors, there are very sharp differences in opinion (see, for example, the inclusionist-deletionist debate, the mess that was/is flagged revisions, or the image-blocking extension fiasco).
 * On the other hand, with smaller, more focused wikis, the relevant opinions are similarly more focused, and there tends to be a smaller leeway for these opinions to differ; this makes discussions run much more smoothly (most of the time, at least) and thus conclude more quickly. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 23:14, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Absolute positioning issue
I'm having an issue with list items and possibly other things throwing out the positioning of absolute items by 1px up or down on IE and Firefox, but not on Chrome (that I can see). More info here. Would you have any idea how to resolve the issue? (Or perhaps someone who would?) – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 07:44, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Can you get a couple sample images, or link me to specific examples? And have you tried  on the outermost div? 「 ディノ 奴  千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 07:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Take a look at the Furnace page while having the edit window open in Firefox or IE, you'll see something like this: Now try deleting all the li elements, or just the entire ul, and now they're both wrong:
 * Also, looking at those images side by side, I just realised that it's actually the relative background that's getting pushed out of position, not the absolute image on top of it.
 * Also also, inline means that the absolute span is no longer relative to the span it's in (it's not a div, that's probably why this issue is happening in the first place, but my talk explains why I don't want to use div), so it goes to the top of the page. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 08:17, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll have to play around with it some myself, then, and see if I can't figure anything out. ;) In the meantime, I have done work on similar relative/absolute stuff; see wikia:c:yugioh:Template:Portal/core - there may be something there that helps you figure this out before I get a chance to really look at it. =) 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 21:55, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Well since there doesn't seem to be a solution to this so far, I'm thinking that a background image might work nicely? It'd only require 1 span per box. It will mean I'll have to add a custom style and re-do all the images, but I'm happy to do that, as long as it'll work out well. If you can't think of any terrible problems this would cause, I'll stick a test up and see how it runs once I have some spare time. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 08:30, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, that could work, since the background isn't actually all that important to readers (that is, they'd definitely notice its absence, but once it's there, they could care less about whether it's a separate image or part of the item sprite). Just keep in mind that if you upload the new sprites as new versions of the current images, you'd have to update the German and Polish (that's the other one that shares our images, right?) templates as necessary, as well. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 09:00, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, what I meant was the background-image css value, not to put the background actually in the image. Then you'd need separate ones for input/output, like the old system. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 09:47, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, I figured you were planning on using ; you just caught me in the midst of my penchant for talking entirely too much. =D 「 ディノ 奴  千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:59, 24 September 2011 (UTC)


 * background: url is just the shorthand for background-image :P I thought you were talking about editing the background into the images. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 03:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, I know it is. I'm lazy, though, and didn't feel like typing out "background-image: url". ;) 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:35, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit
Hello i just wanted to update the Generated structures section but it wont let me "This action has been automatically identified as harmful" MRuleZ 17:47, 14 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It looks like you were trying to remove a section from the page. What are you wanting to change on the page? 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 18:18, 14 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope i was editing all the "will be"'s to "are"'s so i basicly was changing the artiles tense MRuleZ –The preceding undated comment was added on 12:09, 17 September 2011. Please sign your posts with


 * Your edit was blocked for section blanking, so you must have somehow accidentally removed a large block of text (this has happened to me before on other wikis, so I know it can happen even if you have no idea what you might have done to cause it). Try making the edit again. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:37, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I would edit the error page for pre5 and use a link to an image, but after I make the show preview and then save it always appears a math question and then I only can pres the show preview button. So I can't save my error with a proper link. I am not registered.

Ender Pearl
Hey, there are a couple requests to protect the page from edits due to the huge volume of conflicting information. just fyi. --JonTheMon 20:03, 15 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll have a look. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 20:04, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Template:Mobs
Hi, under the Wanted pages, it requests a template called Template:Mobs, but the mobs already exists under the Template:Entities. Is it possible to copy the mob section from Entities, place it in a seperate template, and then delete it on the Entities? FracqGrenade 22:46, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * No, because Mobs was merged into Entities. I did, however, redirect the former to the latter. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 02:46, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Stuck in a cave
Hi guys. I am stuck in a bit of a problem. I was digging in a dungeon and I got lost. I need to make a staircase going up, and I would but I ran out of wood. Everything else I have would take way too long. Here is what I have:


 * 1 bed
 * 1 seeds
 * 1 chest
 * 15 flint
 * 35 gold ore
 * 126 redstone
 * 1 brown mushroom
 * 5 red mushrooms
 * 66 lapis lazuli
 * 1 bucket of water
 * 7 diamonds
 * 14 paper
 * 1 saddle
 * 1 cocoa bean
 * 49 coal
 * 10 iron ingots
 * 47 dirt
 * 64 gravel
 * 98 iron ore
 * 1 map
 * 1 shears
 * 78 cobblestone
 * 1 iron sword
 * 1 iron axe
 * 30 torches
 * 39 moss stone

No, I can't find my way back. I don't want to dig a stairway with my hands. I do not want to put my stuff in the chest and kill myself, I won't be able to find it even with a map! PLEASE HELP ME!! –The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.252.203.187 (Talk 13:35, 24 September 2011. Please sign your posts with


 * If you refuse to do any of those things, about your only option left is to edit your map in MCEdit or the like and move your character back up to the surface. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 18:03, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Version
Wow! Nice improvements there! – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 10:39, 27 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I've been mulling over that edit off-and-on for more than a month, and finally decided to sit down and actually work through it to see if my ideas were right. It turned out pretty good, if I say so myself. =D 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah I know the feeling. I've been planning to rewrite the grid template, but every time I look at Grid/Crafting Table, my brain just fizzles. I don't know how I'll rewrite it when I don't understand half of it, but that's part of the reason it needs rewriting. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 03:31, 28 September 2011 (UTC)


 * That's actually another one I've been eyeballing for months now (along with Grid/Furnace). ;) I guess we'll see which of us decides to break everything horribly try our luck first, then, won't we? =D 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 05:19, 28 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Well maybe we should try to work towards the same thing. My vision of the template is to move all basecode to Template:Grid, and have the Template:Grid/Crafting Table and Template:Grid/Furnace include it as each cell.
 * Basically, I want to stop us from having any duplicated code (and make it easy to update the code, as the layouts will probably never need to change, and who knows how many more blocks will be added that need one of these templates), and have the Template:Grid/ pages as just layouts. Kinda like how Template:Msgbox is to things like Template:Stub.


 * I'd also be changing to using background image and a single span for each cell, once I've gotten around to making a prototype. The major problem I see with it is, I don't know how I'll overlay the numbers. I wouldn't be able to even attempt to have two background images, as the wiki doesn't allow the use of background-image in the span style, so there'd be no way to change it in the template. My only idea is to have it revert to all divs and relative positioning again, if you include a number (or just have the Template:Grid/ pages always use the old method, as they're always in a table, so it doesn't matter if they're divs instead of spans). – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 05:46, 28 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's basically the method I've been looking at. ;) I believe we could probably adapt wikia:c:yugioh:Template:Portal for our needs with the cell template; I just have to get a sandbox copy here that we can start playing with. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 06:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I copied all the templates into my project page, and started on the background, but it seems span isn't going to work. The background ignores the size of the image, and instead goes to about the height of some text. It seems spans ignore the height css as well. :/ Might end up having to use divs and float:left, but that usually doesn't end well. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 04:42, 29 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Span is an inline element, so  is just ignored. I think this can be "fixed" by using   on it, but I think that, ultimately, trying to force spans to do what you want is going to be more trouble than just using divs. I've gotten a start on a div-based solution on User:Dinoguy1000/sandbox, but there's more to be figured out yet. 「 ディノ 奴  千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 06:33, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

You have been selected...
You have been placed on the semi-serious Top Contributors to the wiki list. --HexZyle 16:06, 2 October 2011 (UTC)


 * =D 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 20:27, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

WP
I'm confused. Why doesn't this work? It should allow me to do links like WP:AWB... but it still tries to link to a page on here. Is it just cached and needs time to update or am I retarded? – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 05:10, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Apparently, prefixes have to be lowercase to work... but once they're added properly, they're case-insensitive: wp:AWB, wP:AWB, Wp:AWB, WP:AWB. Huh. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 05:22, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * How odd. Why wouldn't they just add a lower case filter over them instead of just making it break entirely? – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 05:53, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I couldn't say; I don't even know if it's a result of how interwiki prefixes are handled by MediaWiki proper, or if it's a quirk of Extension:Interwiki. =/ 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 06:59, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

1.17
Welp, we've finally upgraded. Unfortunately the tab script is broken, with or without that fix you made before. I can't see what's changed, I thought it was supposed to work out of the box on the new version, as it's designed for it? – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 20:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I've done a bit of housekeeping on your vector.js file - the mapping of jQuery to $, for instance, is no longer necessary, nor is the jQuery snippet to change the (un)watch icons back to text. For the dropdown-to-tabs problem, I switched you over to a newer script - the one I'd previously recommended to you has actually been deprecated, and hasn't been updated since February. To utilize the new one, click on the arrow - this toggles between a dropdown menu and tabs, and it remembers your last preference between pages. Cheers! 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 23:59, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see. It seems to act a bit strange though. It'll load with my settings if I no-cache refresh, but when I load any page after that (or the same page), it doesn't load. And I have to no-cache refresh again to see it. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 01:27, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * (Also is it just me, or does the wiki's font look bigger after the upgrade? The watchlist, and diff comparisons just look... bigger somehow. I don't know if they have a larger line height on if the font is bigger. It looks rather odd.)


 * Yeah, I noticed that. I'm kinda hoping it's just a caching issue that'll go away after a while, since I have no idea how to even begin fixing it if there's something else going on.
 * It's not just you; the line height was increased somewhere (specifically, it looks to be the "line-height: 1.5em" rule on div#content in one of the Vector CSS files). Personally, I like the extra space it gives text, but YMMV. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 04:11, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah it's certainly something to do with the cache. It does seem to be loading (takes the same amount of time to load in cache as that new messages history script, which shows up fine), it's just not actually initialising.


 * There's something up with the way em is being calculated. As far as I know, it's based on the font-size, correct? Well the font size on here and my old install of mediawiki is both 16px sans-serif with a line-height of 1.5em. On my install, it's calculating the line-height to 19.2 px, but on here it's 24px. I don't even know how that's possible.


 * Also an odd thing I just noticed, near the end of page loading it spends a lot of time hanging on connecting to http://twitter.com/status/user_timeline/MojangTeam.json?count=6. I assume this is the feed for the sidebar (I guess setting it to display none doesn't stop the javascript from trying to load it anyway). It spent 40 seconds trying to load it before aborting, and yet twitter itself loads almost instantly.
 * It's kind of annoying as my quick preview button doesn't show up until it's done, and I can't find any javascript file to try blocking. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 05:24, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes; to be precise, it's "the proportion of a given letter's width and height with respect to the point size of a given font". If the CSS hasn't changed at all, I have no idea why the spacing actually applied by the browser would have, but there might be a report somewhere on Bugzilla about it.
 * Viewing the source of a random page with "?debug=true", it appears that the JS responsible is the following:

/*<![CDATA[*/ jQuery(function{                          jQuery.jTwitter('MojangTeam', 6, function(data){ var posts = jQuery('#twitter_posts'); posts.empty; jQuery.each(data, function(i, post) {                                  posts.append('' + post.text + '');                               }); });                      }); /*]]>*/
 * (this is directly below " "; it appears to be identical without the debug parameter). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 05:47, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, it's hiding in the page. I was looking for it in . I've blocked the script and now pages load lightning fast, excellent thanks!
 * Might be a good idea for anyone not using the sidebar to do. The adblock script for it is: ||minecraftwiki.net/skins/common/jquery.twitter.js?* – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 06:41, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * That doesn't really help me personally, though, since I use the NotScripts extension in Google Chrome, whose granularity is limited to individual websites (it's a rather simple whitelist/blacklist-type thing). It *should* be possible to block the script purely from within a user's vector.js file (depending on the exact order of loading/execution of various JS components), but I have no idea how to even begin. =/ 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 07:05, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * There's a chrome version of adblock, although last time I tried it it wasn't as good (sometimes left a blank space where the ads were). – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 08:25, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Ehh, that's all right; the script doesn't really bother me so I'm not going to worry too much about it at this time. ;) 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 08:26, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

lol ^^
I'm so glad the two of you have "found" each other.... just reading your conversations make my head hurt........... HAHAHA! -- Wynthyst  talk  06:00, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Reading the conversations makes my head hurt too! Especially this javascript stuff. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 06:41, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm glad we're able to provide you so much amusement, Wyn! =D And at least we haven't "found" each other in the manner that Notch and DannyBStyle have on Twitter... XD
 * @Ultradude: Don't feel too bad about that, I don't consider a template hacking sprint to be really satisfying unless I come out of it mentally exhausted (which usually means a mild headache). ;) 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 07:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

locked out
I don't know if you can help but recently purchased access for my 11 year old son and he seems to be locked out of his account. It was during the password reset process he decided to tell me that he couldn't remember the password to his Gmail account. Any help or advice appreciated - if better to do this via email its quest01@globalnet.co.uk (I can remember passwords!) Thanks


 * Sorry, but we have nothing to do with the day-to-day operation of the game itself; we're just a fan site. If you need help with an account, your best bet is to work through minecraft.net/support (if you're having a problem with Gmail, Google has methods in place to help with that as well - start at mail.google.com). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 15:33, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Signature
How do you make such a cool signature? Do you have to be an admin/mod? FracqGrenade 19:59, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope, you just have to be handy with HTML and CSS. =)
 * To customize your signature, go to your preferences and find the "New signature" text box. You can change your signature by editing the text in this box (it's considered common courtesy to keep at least one link to your user page or talk page in your signature, though, so keep that in mind). If you change your signature, you also need to make sure the "Treat signature as wikitext (without an automatic link)" checkbox immediately under the text box is checked.
 * If your new signature is too long for the box (it's capped at 255 bytes), you can instead create a subpage in your userspace with your signature's content in it, and set your preferences to automatically substitute this page when you sign a comment: assuming your signature subpage is User:FracqGrenade/sig, the text you would enter in the "New signature" text box would be  (again, you'd make sure that the "Treat signature as wikitext (without an automatic link)" checkbox is checked). This is the method I use for my own signature; my signature subpage can be viewed at User:Dinoguy1000/signature (and the string I use in the "New signature" box in my preferences is then  ).
 * If you need any more help, please feel free to ask! ;) 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 20:24, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Fracq Grenade  talk Apple2.png  contribiutions  20:58, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, yeah! Just another thing, which really isn't related to signature, but on the Main Page/editcopy, I've added some pictures on the right side, which have something to do with Minecraft. Do you think that'd work on the Main Page? Or should I just delete it? Fracq Grenade  talk  Apple2.png  contribiutions  21:23, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * No problem. =)
 * For the changes you've suggested for the main page, it would be rather presumptuous of me to unilaterally state that they are or aren't fine; you should seek wider input from the community via Project:Community portal. ;) 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 02:39, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Template testcases/sandboxes
Alright, I can understand not categorizing them with the other templates, but then where would you categorize them? Does the proper category even exist yet? Eearslya ( talk | contribs ) 03:00, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Probably not. I need to copy over and  from Wikipedia and add them to the pages in question (I would suggest you don't copy these here yourself, since they will need to be modified a bit to work properly here); the copied templates will then auto-categorize the pages into the proper categories. 「 ディノ 奴  千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 06:00, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Minecraft Wiki Left Bar
Hi Dino,

I've been looking at the left bar on the Minecraft Wiki, and the dropdown effects are really nice. I've been trying to look at the code which enables this but to no avail, due to the code clutter.

I'd really appreciate it if you'd be able to show me the full code that does it, or at least direct me in the right path. I'd like to tinker around with it and see what I can do.

Thank you very much.

Regards, Ader 03:52, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't actually know much about it myself... I understand how generally to show/hide elements, but I don't know how to make them slide open/closed as the left menus do. If you want an easier time looking through the code, though, appending "debug=true" to URLs makes MediaWiki serve unminified code, e.g. [ like this] - that should help at least a bit with the code clutter. ;) 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 04:50, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Alright, thank you very much! But do you know of anyone who has the code?

EDIT: The dropdown stuff doesn't work in debug mode. :(

EDIT2: Hey, what do you know? I found it! Oh and I found out taht you've gotta append "?&debug=true" for the code to be non-minimalistic. Not just the ampersand, but the question mark too.

Thanks, Ader 07:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)