Minecraft Wiki talk:Community portal/Archive 28

Aim of the wiki and other titles in the franchise
The result of the discussion was carry out the proposal suggested by AttemptToCallNil in the last section. This closure primarily reflects the participation of that discussion in particular, but I've also briefly looked throughout the rest of the discussion to see if any important arguments were made there. Although almost all participants in the discussion of ATCN's proposal have been supporters, I have taken in mind the concerns pointed out (particularly by Violine) when evaluating this consensus.

There's a pretty strong consensus to keep Minecraft Dungeons pages on this wiki but move to the namespace Minecraft Dungeons, with both Dungeons and MCD as namespace aliases. The discussion makes it clear that Dungeons content should not be covered fully in the mainspace, so the only slight question would be whether it should be moved to a new namespace or a new wiki completely. Editors have pointed out several issues with a new wiki for MCD: you need a new community with people willing to administrate, it will likely have a worse SEO, and it would possibly be hosted by Fandom which could cause further complications, etc. which in my opinion overrule the argument that was briefly brought up, that there would need to be separate templates and technology if Dungeons were to stay on the wiki. In addition, it's far easier to have Dungeons in a separate namespace and later move it to a new wiki if documenting it here becomes a problem than the other way around.

Minecraft Earth was a lot less clear; I only see a weak consensus to keep them in mainspace, simply as a separate page if needed. Although this suggestion was in the original proposal, very few of those supporting advocated for why this would be more productive than having a separate namespace like we would for Minecraft Dungeons. But the proposed resolution for Earth in particular was made very clear, so if anybody strongly believed that it really needed it's own namespace I would presume they would have said so. So for now the proposal for Minecraft Earth still stands, but if anybody disagrees with it, they are welcome to create a new discussion to determine the status of Earth in particular.--Madminecrafter12 (Talk to me 14:36, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

This Discord message is the reason I'm posting this here. Since the introduction of an entirely separate game, Story Mode, questions have been raised about whether we need to provide detailed coverage of other Minecraft titles, or delegate this task to other wikis and settle for brief descriptions instead. Given the upcoming release of Minecraft: Dungeons, it would be better if this question was finally answered.

The aim of the wiki was implicitly and informally defined too long ago, when what is now Java Edition was the sole work titled Minecraft. As such, it cannot be said that we document Minecraft and therefore only the main game. This statement could be made broader, to the point that since what we call Bedrock Edition is the sole work officially named "Minecraft" without any other words in the title, we could say that this wiki should only document Bedrock Edition and delegate coverage of other editions to other wikis. While such an approach isn't going to be taken because of substantial similarity between Minecraft editions, something not true for completely independent titles in the franchise, it underlines the main issue with this argument: "Minecraft" in "we document Minecraft" isn't defined. And I have started this very topic specifically to help the community determine what definition is appropriate.

I support documenting other titles on this wiki. Content pages for these titles could be placed in subpages or separate namespaces (like UESP does). --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 14:51, 11 June 2019 (UTC)


 * franchise as a whole, as I already stated on discord. I'd prefer just subpages, rather than separate namespaces though, so they can be found better with the search then. FVbico (talk) 15:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * UESP definitely supports search suggestions for other content namespaces. There are server configuration options for enabling them as content namespaces and as namespaces to be searched by default. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 15:42, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Uninvited, seriously I want to comment on this topic. I thought carefully about new community, the independent community is more new and dynamic, knowing how to running with scissors, like today Singapore and Japan. Singapore's approach gives a community the opportunity to develop independently, the new community is more focused on the gameplay writing of this new game.


 * A point of view made against : A new game released by Mojang must have much gameplay in the future, if it is not advisable to take many subpages, the reader will only be busy looking for the subtitle page, rather than a complete wiki. Looking at the previous Minecraft Wiki and not preparing any subpage for Minecraft:Story Mode, it is obviously not appropriate to outline the entire page with a whole game.


 * I quote words from Gamepedia suggesting wiki interface:


 * "At Gamepedia, our goal is to provide the #1 wiki resource for gamers spanning all genres and platforms. Whether you are starting a brand new wiki or moving an existing one over, gamepedia will provide your community with all the necessary tools to create a great wiki. Please answer the following questions to give us a better understanding of your preferred involvement."


 * FANDOM has the same wiki: https://minecraftdungeons.fandom.com . Why couldn't set up a new wiki on Gamepedia by interfering with the right of others to establish a wiki freedom?


 * So my opinion is given, sorry. All in all, we need to listen Gamepedia wiki managers and project creator's suggstion. --Angrydog001 議(Talk)/誌(Logs)/勛(Contribs) 17:41, 11 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but I can't understand this post. I'm unable to see links between its parts, and sorry for being blunt, but it doesn't sound coherent enough. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace)


 * ^That being the case, we reserved our respective views. Besides, what BD saying is what I thinking. --Angrydog001 議(Talk)/誌(Logs)/勛(Contribs) 02:45, 12 June 2019 (UTC)


 * . If Minecraft Dungeons has a lot of content that differs than the main game, and will receive constant updates, then it may be better to have a separate wiki for it. If the game is similar to the main game then it should be on here, as a subpages of Minecraft: Dungeons. We didn't have this discussion about story mode because it didn't add enough content but now with 2 new games on the horizon this is quite different. – Nixinova Nixinova sig1.png Nixinova sig2.png 19:22, 11 June 2019‎ (UTC).


 * How much is too much? Given this question is not answerable, this topic is not about whether to make a new wiki for MC: Dungeons, but about the scope of this wiki, and thus whether titles like Story Mode or Dungeons should be documented here in detail. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 20:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I think this will should be more about the franchise as a whole, but I'm not sure of the extent we should document other games on here. I think subpages are the best idea at the moment for eg Dungeons exclusives. Story Mode can be easily described in one page. Though, what is technically the difference between bedrock, console, java, and dungeons? All are completely different games that just have similar content. To answer the main question... "probably". – Nixinova Nixinova sig1.png Nixinova sig2.png 21:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I think I can't formally answer this question. Because first, I'd like to know how we could even document other games in the first place, and make it fit on the wiki. But seeing we're still stuck on the wiki-wide refactoring of edition-specific information already, I'm not seeing how we're going to get consensus on how to document an even wider scope. So generally speaking, it's my opinion we should discuss at least how we could achieve this, before deciding whether we should do it. But for what it's worth, depending on whether it could be done with a clear distinction between each game, I'd be leaning towards the whole franchise. Because although they might not be the same game, if they are part of the same franchise, they essentially are still "Minecraft"-y. But I'm heavily concerned about the implementation of this. – Jack McKalling [ Book and Quill.png Diamond Pickaxe.png ] 21:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Whether it is implementable is definitely not a problematic question. Documenting substantially different titles requires even less integration with main-game articles than edition refactoring. A custom content namespace or a subpage system (I'd prefer the former, I guess?) is not impossible, and integration into main game articles could be achieved with a dedicated section (such as "In other titles"), which briefly describes the subject's involvement in titles like Dungeons or Story Mode (also, why wouldn't we document books as well?) and links to more detailed dedicated articles. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 21:42, 11 June 2019 (UTC)


 * . Having too many articles dedicated to a particular game (Dungeons) or series of games (Story Mode) will basically make this wiki a huge mess. When I first began making the Story Mode article back in 2014, I had felt like that it would be best if information about the game was kept to that article, with the exception of trivia or pictures pertaining to the game in other articles.
 * Its simply unnecessary for numerous articles that are basically part of spin-offs to be included in this wiki. It would be better off if any additional information (e.g. locations / characters in Story Mode or items/armor/potions in Dungeons) be kept completely separate from this one. -BDJP (t 23:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)


 * . Story Mode is a standalone game created by another company, Telltale. They only acquired the rights to use Minecraft franchise for their game. Aside from that, Story Mode is a linear progression storytelling or basically just a point and click game, it's not worth documenting each character in the first place. As for Minecraft Dungeons even though it's a Mojang game, it's not suitable for this wiki. Every items, mobs, and mechanics will conflict with the base game. Sure we can utilize namespaces as the solution, but Minecraft Dungeons has a very different genre, it'll be 100% better to just separate the wiki, more efficient and maintained separately.
 * Back to the topic, yes this wiki documents the Minecraft franchise as a whole, hence why we have Minecraft Dungeons and Minecraft Story Mode articles. But this wiki isn't suitable to document all the contents and gameplay of another game, we should keep this wiki to only document the main game and only the titles of another game. – ItsPlantseed ⟨₰|₢⟩ 05:24, 12 June 2019 (UTC)


 * . Unlike Story Mode, I think Minecraft: Dungeons is actually an indie game with enough new content that it's likely to contain a lot of diffenent content information. Even if it is the same thing as the vanilla, it must contain different information from the vanilla one. Putting them in subpages means there will be tons of subpages and subpages of subpages, so why not make it a standalone wiki? — SagvinXC   讨论(Talk)/贡献(Contribs) 02:40, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Once again, the question of this topic has no relation to specific titles whatsoever! The question is the scope of the wiki. All conversation in this topic is basically people pushing incoherent, unexplained, and often false reasons why this wiki should not have extensive coverage. Since the question is the scope of the wiki, nothing about non-primary titles matters: their number, their content, nothing. The only thing that matters is to what extent we should document, for the purposes of this discussion, an unknowable number of titles with unknowable content, of which the only thing known is that they're part of the Minecraft franchise. For an example similar to non-primary titles, take mods. If not for the aggressive vanilla-elitist position of the community and disturbingly poor admin strategies during this wiki's first few years, this wiki could have become the source of information not only on vanilla Minecraft, but on a wide variety of mods as well. This has irrecoverably failed, and people are now pretending like mods were never within the scope of the wiki to begin with. Technological limitations are most definitely not a problem with documenting many titles. Neither is "creating a mess", content organization is solvable. What's not easy to solve is involved editors. I'd rather not resort to pointing out specific titles, but we may as well have lost our chance to provide due coverage of Story Mode – it's too late now for multiple reasons. So the question is, what exactly is this wiki about? --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 09:02, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
 * What the wiki is about? Ultimately, to have people cooperate together. This conversation isn't a very good example of that. – Jack McKalling [ Book and Quill.png Diamond Pickaxe.png ] 09:31, 12 June 2019 (UTC)


 * As I just said above, this wiki serves no purpose for documenting the contents of another titles. Other titles should have their own wiki separately if they don't share the same gameplay and genre. That's it, this wiki should only document the main vanilla sandbox game, Minecraft. And clearly unofficial community-made stuffs don't belong here, none of them are supported by the official nor the wiki. Mod pages only cover some parts of the community, some are taken care by an individual and most of them are abandoned just to fall into despair. But then again it's just my own opinion and I'm not fully opposing this, there are some of my concerns regarding this move among others:
 * What belongs in the mainspace?
 * The searchability and accessibility of specific titles.
 * If we were about to include namespaces for specific titles, the search bar functionality should refer to the title that people desire (one solution I can think of is to add a dropdown menu that search a specific namespace). – ItsPlantseed ⟨₰|₢⟩ 11:16, 12 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I personally to opening it up.
 * I'm imagining keeping mainspace for the java/bedrock/etc game, and opening new namespaces for each of the other game series: one for Earth and whatever sequels, one for Dungeons and whatever sequels, one for the Story Mode series, and so on.
 * From mainspace articles like Pig, you could have sections at the bottom, near the History / References area, titled "In Minecraft Earth", "In Minecraft Dungeons", and so on. These could have see-also links to and, as well as short summaries perhaps. And then you'd have a nice, clean  with content only from that game.
 * I like this organization because it separates the peripheral content from the main-game content. Peripheral game info won't be sprinkled throughout the page, so when the main java/bedrock/etc game gets its many many updates, editors won't have to gingerly step over all this other content. And those other namespaces won't have to deal with the constant update churn from java/bedrock/etc that's irrelevant to their games. –Preceding unsigned comment was added by Sealbudsman (talk • contribs) at 20:10, 12 June 2019‎ (UTC). Please sign your posts with
 * I would this method. – Nixinova Nixinova sig1.png Nixinova sig2.png 20:15, 12 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I appreciate this discussion, and I thank for raising it.  The question of the purpose and scope of this wiki is at once a philosophical one and a matter of history, preference, and practicality.
 * First, the Ship of Theseus comes to mind - What exactly defines Minecraft the game, and at what point does Minecraft the game become something other than itself? Are Java Minecraft and Bedrock Minecraft the same game?  Well, yes and no.  How I see it is that essentially they are the same - a player's experience with the game involves mostly the same kinds of adventures and interaction with the game interface in both versions, despite that there are minor (and sometimes not so minor) differences.  Should they have separate wikis?  Probably not.  I liken this to how I may act somewhat differently in different social contexts, such as at work, with family, among friends, on this wiki, etc.  Am I a sufficiently different person in each context to be called a different me?  No, I don't think so.  (YMMV.)
 * I have a brother, and he's a lot like me but also very much his own man. I see Minecraft and Minecraft: Dungeons (etc.) in this light: Part of the same family, but not the same individual.  So then, when people are seeking information about Memetics, are they looking for information about only one kind of me, about the various "me"s, or about me and other members of my family?  I guess it depends on the seeker.  I personally only really care about finding information here on the core game we call Minecraft.  But sometimes I might look elsewhere for information on tutorials, on mods, on related games in the franchise, on Minecraft stories (official books), on toys, and so on.  Why should I have to look elsewhere for this information, I wonder?  Why can't I find it all here, on the official Minecraft wiki?
 * And here's where I arrive at my position of . To the extent that we can be a comprehensive and most-useful information source for all things Minecraft, I think we should be.  I believe we can and should stay focused primarily on the core game but that we also can be so much more.  I believe we can solve the technical challenges that this change will pose (and by "we," I mean "you, all you people with better technical ability than me," though I'll pitch in my $0.02 here and there).  And I believe that this expansion of focus will help us to attract a much broader cadre of dedicated editors, which in my view can only serve to make this place a healthier and more vibrant community with more long-term staying power.  &#8212; Memetics  talk &#124; edits 06:35, 13 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I oppose this idea if the wiki continues in its current state. I've mentioned before that I think the wiki can already be extremely messy due to 5+ versions of Minecraft that have been, or are being, developed. However, if we do eventually find a good way to represent these differences without making these extremely messy pages, I would be more likely to support this. The wiki just doesn't need more mess, but if we can do it well, I'll support. –Preceding unsigned comment was added by PancakeIdentity (talk • contribs) at 02:40, 14 June 2019‎ (UTC). Please sign your posts with

AttemptToCallNil's proposed resolution
I believe there is one most significant argument of those who opposed covering other Minecraft titles on this wiki in detail, and it is great difficulty in manage articles if they had to include other titles' information.

It does not seem to be a real challenge, however. I believe this to be even easier than managing editions of a single base game. Separate articles can be created and referenced from the main game article in a short section.

For organizing the separate articles, we could create subpages (not good for search) or use disambiguation in parentheses (this may have other issues), and we also have the option of a separate custom namespace. I do not believe there is substantial difficulty for wiki managers in configuring a separate namespace for each title, which are not expected to appear in significant numbers. Wikis which have to manage content from multiple titles use both namespaces and parentheses to various degree of success.

For examples of such coverage, I provide the Fallout wiki on Gamepedia (known as The Vault), Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages (UESP), and its Fandom counterpart (Gamepedia does not have a general TES wiki).

For the Vault, a single weapon type, a 10mm pistol, has many different implementations in the many titles of the Fallout franchise. There is even a common article for all those variations, which provides links to articles about such items in specific games.

One example from UESP is the Azura's Star, an artifact which makes appearances in four major titles. There is a lore page for it, a subsection for Daggerfall, and three articles for Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim.

A second example from UESP is the Light Armor skill. It also appears in four titles (but not the same four titles) and has a separate article for each of them: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, TES Online.

The Fandom Elder Scrolls Wiki uses a more conventional parenthesized disambiguation. Azura's Star has a disambiguation page, and separate pages for Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. An identical approach is used for light armor: a disambiguation page and articles for Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, and TES Online.

These examples indicate it is possible to manage such content without creating a huge mess.

In particular regarding Dungeons, there is a reason I would strongly prefer not creating a separate wiki. A separate wiki would mean reduced interactions between base game and Dungeons editors, reducing flow of users from one wiki community to another, and creating possibilities for a greater split in the general Minecraft community. In this case, there would be a blank wiki with little to no established policies and a new administration team (much more reliance on GRASP for recent changes patrolling, less effective admin tools use – there has even been a concern than a certain non-English editor has a non-constructive approach to opening a Dungeons wiki in their language).

Since Fandom acquired Gamepedia and later announced Project Crossover (referred to by some people as "Project Gelatinous Cube"), which involves potential merges of same-subject wikis between the two wiki farms, the possibility of integrating the existing Minecraft community on Fandom (which is smaller and lacks the advantage of being official) into the one on Gamepedia has been discussed. In light of this possibility, proposing a further split of the Minecraft community seems counterproductive to me.

Another issue is caused by existence of non-English Minecraft wikis (but please don't joke about having them deleted, it's inappropriate). If a separate wiki is created for English coverage of Dungeons, it will be implicit encouragement for other wikis to delegate Dungeons coverage to separate Dungeons wikis, which may have undesired effects on their communities. Even if a non-English wiki defies this encouragement (which could even be named borderline denial of agency) and covers Dungeons on their wikis, a separate Dungeons wiki in that language could be opened, thus creating an ineffective system of content duplication (once again, something against the aims of projects like Crossover) and splitting the community.

I propose detailed coverage about Dungeons, and likely Story Mode as well, to be provided on this wiki, in separate custom namespaces.

Please note I would strongly not appreciate unargumented opposition – you're basically saying "your reasoning is faulty, and I won't tell you why". Also I ask you to avoid repetition of arguments provided above (that coverage here would be a mess – I have provided evidence to the contrary, or something among the lines of "there should be no coverage because there should be no coverage" – this is even worse than no argumentation because it's lack of reasoning that doesn't necessarily look invalid). --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 21:29, 24 June 2019 (UTC)


 * per my resolution as stated below. -BDJP (t 04:53, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

BDJP007301's proposed resolution
The aim of this wiki for far too long has been about the similar editions of Minecraft that have been released on everything at this point. Computers, tablets, smart phones, game consoles; you name it. Then, out of nowhere, we get Story Mode (heck, it was revealed in a "game" released on Mojang's website), and the same with Dungeons and Earth; both are basically revealed without any proper tease or information beforehand. They are also revealed to be coming to basically the same devices, but how the games play out are completely different.

Both Story Mode and its sequel are not sandbox games, but instead are point-and-click and driven by a narrative. While they do have a similar visual style, they are completely different at their core, with stuff that is not possible in the sandbox game, such as animated facial expressions, fluid movement, a third-person camera constantly following the player at various angles, voice acting, etc. Also, as stated by ItsPlantseed, characters / mobs from a game other than the sandbox game are not suitable for this wiki (heck, there is already a separate wiki that we can move over to Gamepedia).

As for Dungeons, it is also not a sandbox game, but an action-adventure RPG. Again, while it does have a similar visual style to the sandbox game, it is completely different at its core, with stuff that is not possible in the sandbox game, such as a top-down camera, in-game currency that is used throughout the game as a whole (not just the Marketplace in the sandbox game), completely different weapons / items / mobs, powerups, etc.

As for Earth, it is also not a sandbox game (per se), but an augmented-reality game. Again, while it does have a similar visual style to the sandbox game, it ends up becoming different at its core. First and foremost, unlike the previous two, this is exclusive to iOS and Android. Secondly, while the gameplay is similar to the sandbox game, it is impossible in the sandbox game for there to be a 360 degree camera without the need for virtual reality (sorry, Bedrock Edition on Gear VR doesn't count), or for real people to be implemented into the world.

Simply put, Story Mode, Dungeons and Earth do not share the same gameplay or genre with the sandbox game, and as such, are completely different, and therefore must be completely separate from this one. For the fact that both Dungeons and Earth have separate Twitter accounts as well is something of note.

Managing articles to include information different from the sandbox game (which is what this particular wiki covers) will cause massive confusion among visitors. Having articles / subpages for Dungeons, Earth, and Story Mode will make this wiki more focused on editors than visitors, be much more difficult to maintain, and said articles may eventually become abandoned and suffer from all kinds of internet rot (I'm looking at all the mod pages that have been made and then eventually deleted because of being left abandoned). It will especially become difficult when, exaggeratingly speaking, that a major update for Dungeons, Earth and the sandbox game are all released on the same day, meaning that it could take days, let alone weeks, for all the information to be updated (instead of it currently taking around a day or less for us to update the articles with the major updates to the sandbox game).

As for Dungeons in particular, keeping the information separate will help tremendously as it'll avoid editing conflicts with this wiki as a whole, will make this wiki easier to maintain, and avoid internet rot (I'll be happy to help set up the Dungeons wiki if need be).

While I was not able to provide good examples of information being separate (as some wikis I have been looking up haven't been updated in 2+ years, and also for the fact we aren't Wikipedia), it will be easier to have the information completely separate overall for the reasons as stated above.

'''I vehemently oppose any coverage about Dungeons, Story Mode, or Earth on this wiki, with the exception of one article having a brief explanation about each game. This wiki is meant to be about the sandbox game, not the Minecraft universe as a whole.'''

I end with this quote from Jasper Boerstra (this one and this one):

-BDJP (t 04:53, 30 June 2019 (UTC)


 * In other words, here are the key points of this topic:
 * Story Mode (SM) and Dungeons (D) are completely different games than Minecraft, and therefore must be described separately.
 * Having any sort of SM/D information on this wiki (implicitly – regardless of arrangement) will be excessively confusing to readers.
 * This wiki will not be able to maintain SM/D articles, and they will be abandoned (implicitly – as opposed to if they were hosted on another wiki, where they would be better off).
 * Evidence of that imminent abandonment is mods.
 * Maintaining SM/D articles will divide the attention of existing editors (implicitly – as opposed to if the articles were hosted on another wiki), which will harm main game coverage.
 * This wiki is only about the sandbox games.
 * All the points presented above are refutable, and thus so is this entire proposal.
 * Point 1. No logical link. Once again, I must refer to Fallout and Elder Scrolls, where there is no evidence of decisions that games outside their typical RPG form must have separate wikis. TES: Blades and Fallout Shelter, I believe, are described on the same wikis as other games in the Minecraft universe, which both SM and D are explicitly stated to be part of. A factor weakening my position may be absence of a base series of games in the same universe prior to the release of dissimilar titles, though, 1) sandbox games rarely get sandbox sequels due to the nature of the genre, and 2) other points remain unaffected by this.
 * Point 2. That "implicitly" part in my point is key. I have presented _two_ arrangements in my proposal which are demonstrably not disastrous for readers. One point, however, I have not covered, is searchability of SM/D content (think SEO). Since it should be expected that people will initially come to SM/D articles from search engines, how close to #1 will the wiki be will determine whether it remains functional. I am not remotely knowledgeable on SEO, so this is just my relatively-layman hypothesis: being associated with an active wiki is likely to be a positive factor, but so may be having a separate subdomain, and/or association with Gamepedia. I will ask for expert advice.
 * Point 3. The "implicitly" part is again key; even if you have not said this, your argument – that a separate wiki is better – is automatically invalid without it. Having SM/D articles on this wiki is likely to improve the chance of current visitors, whether editors or readers, finding them, thus helping these articles to stay alive. The searchablility factor is still applicable.
 * Point 3.1. There have been many contributing factors to mods becoming unused here. Their less-searchable arrangement (as opposed to, say, a custom namespace). The core community's negative attitude towards unofficial content (including the popular non-sequitur "we're the official wiki and therefore can't cover unofficial content"), to the point they were effectively subject to unstated exemptions from all rules (then-admin Kanegasi told me that in 2013). The presence of separate, official mod and mod pack wikis, including the FTB Wiki (which would make this wiki just a secondary source of information). Probably other factors as well.
 * The Russian wiki had a different situation for all the listed factors. There are still mod articles being developed, and even though they aren't updated very well, neither is base game information. This is, however, not necessarily applicable to the English wiki for one of the factors I listed: managing a non-English language project or a wiki is something almost no single mod wiki does at all, much less something they do effectively.
 * A more important analogy to see with content rot is, yes, non-English language projects (typically referred to with terms which imply their derived, dependent status on the English wiki, a despicable trend of marginalizing people who don't speak English; I deliberately avoid such terms as "translation project" or "language wikis"). Why did so many translations on this wiki become inactive and had to be purged? Because they didn't have enough editors. There are, once again, many reasons for that, and not being a separate wiki isn't necessarily among these reasons. Some translation projects did get their wikis, even recently. Are they more active now? Some may be, but definitely not all. Could we have done things better for them? Yes. For one, listing non-English versions on top of each page would have contributed to influx of a new editors.
 * Point 4. That's a mostly flawed model of editors. Typically, wiki editors, especially on relatively large wikis, have areas in which they work. They may not have or like all the games or editions, they may do something that few other can, or they may be bad at something people are often good at. If an editor is focused on updating command documentation, writing change logs, or editing tutorials, they will be mostly unaffected by there being a separate namespace.
 * I said "mostly". The editors whose attention will be divided are those metapedically focused: tracking discussions, managing templates, clearing backlogs (yet most of those isn't the work which greatly peaks with updates, that would be content writing). What would happen if there was a separate wiki? They'd need a metapedic setup: people who can create and revise rules, guidelines, policies, templates, content layout... and where will they take these people from? Who will they ask for assistance? Will there be a "they" even? Capable wiki maintainers are much less common than your average article creators, and we have quite a bit here. The topic of dividing the community was one I covered in my proposal.
 * Point 5. That's just what the dragon left for his treat. Because it's simple: figuring out what this wiki's about is the aim of this discussion. This hasn't been decided yet.
 * We have screwed up with mod coverage, we have screwed up with translation projects, we have screwed up with Story Mode. I believe proposals like this can lead us to screwing up with Dungeons, Earth, and whatever comes next as well. I have nothing left in my life than these few communities online I still believe I can help, and it seems to me people are pushing, in good faith, for something that is likely to deal irrepairable harm to these very communities. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 22:52, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
 * We have screwed up with mod coverage, we have screwed up with translation projects, we have screwed up with Story Mode. I believe proposals like this can lead us to screwing up with Dungeons, Earth, and whatever comes next as well. I have nothing left in my life than these few communities online I still believe I can help, and it seems to me people are pushing, in good faith, for something that is likely to deal irrepairable harm to these very communities. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 22:52, 1 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I think non-core-MC content (SM, Earth, Dungeons) shouldn't really be documented fully in this wiki, but wouldn't mind if they were. Also, these massive 6KB text walls aren't really encouraging discussion here. – Nixinova Nixinova sig1.png Nixinova sig2.png 02:51, 2 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Trying to stay on a discussion of scope of the wiki: I think the wiki would be better, and more of something to take communal pride in, with more of the official franchise in it.
 * Imagine: you'd look at a page like Sheep, and you're not just reading about how it works in the core sandbox game, instead you have access to sections about the other games right there, and you can get a glimpse how the Sheep plays its part across all Minecraft worlds. That's lore, that's interesting stuff fans would love. And that goes for Dungeons readers too! They get to know the Sheep as it was in the original game. It's a much richer page.
 * And then we look back on that a few years later and can be proud we made that transition and made it all that much richer.
 * I read BDJP's piece, and while I don't really feel much of it actually discourages me from supporting opening the project up, I think his point about internet rot is an interesting one to consider. Ultimately with that though, you can never predict beforehand what editors will come. We've had times when we wished we had more Bedrock and Console editors, but over time they did come. I'm optimistic about Earth and Dungeons editors; we had a fantastic Story Mode editor after all ; ) – Sealbudsman talk | contribs 01:49, 18 July 2019 (UTC)


 * I've added a few bits of trivia to pages such as pig and mooshroom saying that muddy pigs and mooblooms exist; since Earth runs in Bedrock there's not any exclusive functionality afaik so no need for any sections or anything. – Nixinova Nixinova sig1.png Nixinova sig2.png 02:17, 18 July 2019 (UTC)


 * This is a tough issue with no easy answer. Both (all) sides have persuasive points.  I'm comfortable with us being "Minecraft-the-sandbox-game documentation," a comprehensive user manual with text and pictures.  I'm also comfortable with that being just one facet of a wiki that covers the entire Minecraft universe, because I am convinced that we can manage successfully the complexity of such a wiki with our current leadership at the helm.


 * So since a choice is required, I'll keep my original stance. I like the idea of us being the comprehensive, go-to wiki for all things Minecraft.  I think we ought to be more than just a fancy user manual for the core game.  I concur with Sealbudsman (18 July) and lean toward the solution AttemptToCallNil has proposed, with separate namespaces.  I think that needs to be accompanied by a distinct page style for each namespace, if possible; the pages' look and feel - i.e., color scheme, head banner, maybe page structure - will help people tell at a glance which specific Minecraft "species" (sandbox game, interactive story, novel, toy, whatever) the particular page is about.  This should be accompanied by clear infoboxes or whatever identifying the "species" at the top of each page.


 * As long as we continue to document the ever-evolving core game(s) effectively, I believe (as I said before) that expanding our scope will result in a larger, healthier community of editors and, if managed properly, will not result in the confusion we wish to avoid. I even asked my nine-year-old daughter about this issue and read her the various opinions here.  She said at first that it might be confusing to have the expanded scope, but then she brightened and declared with enthusiasm that she thinks it will be fine because we can label the information to make it clear which Minecraft thing the information is about.  She even mentioned a wiki for another game where this is done.  So if she can distinguish such information without confusion (and with enthusiasm, even), then I am confident that the vast majority of our readers will have a similar experience.


 * Also worthy of note: We must make this decision based on reason and evidence if we want to make the best decision. However, we have to acknowledge, I think, the emotion behind this: Our feelings of what scope is best are tied up with our involvement and history with the game(s), and with the wiki, and with the various communities involved.  Whatever decision we make, we are going to feel uncomfortable with it to some degree, and some people will be affected more than others, no matter what we decide.  We have to acknowledge that that's a normal and expected part of the process of change here and to be prepared for that.  We have to do our best to proceed with patience and empathy, and with a degree of compromise, regardless of the outcome.  Having said that, we can only make a good decision here by doing our best to acknowledge and then set aside our emotional associations with Minecraft and engage in the rational basis for what our scope ought to be.  What is best for the wiki and for its user community?


 * Whatever the wiki's scope, I think we'd generally agree that readers of the wiki usually arrive here because they're seeking information about Minecraft. They want to learn.  To best inform and educate readers, then, the wiki needs to have content that is clear, accurate, current, complete, and easily accessible.  Some of the arguments laid out so far raise concerns that expanding our scope would make achieving those goals more difficult.  But I'm more persuaded by the arguments that if we organize the information carefully and systematically, the potential problems will be minimized and that we will gain more in the benefits, which would include a more active, healthy community of editors, some of whom would focus on parts of the wiki more narrowly and some of whom would be more broadly involved.


 * Therefore, the reasoning and evidence overall say to me that we ought to go ahead with expanding our scope to cover the whole franchise: the Minecraft universe (or the whole Minecraft Tree of Life, if you will, not just one branch). We need to evolve just as Minecraft evolves.  It won't be easy, but it promises to be worth the effort.  &#8212; Memetics  talk &#124; edits 15:40, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Earth

 * (New section to differentiate from the text walls above)

Minecraft Earth is now out and since it runs on Bedrock, all Bedrock features apply to Earth. There are a couple of exclusive features - mooblooms and muddy pigs - but otherwise features are the same. I think it would be fine to have info about mooblooms and muddy pigs documented on their respective parent pages (pig and mooshroom), since there isn't that much (Muddy Pigs jump in Mud and Mooblooms plant dandelions when they walk), and for a page on Mud to be created. – Nixinova  22:34, 19 July 2019 (UTC)


 * At first thought, I'd be fine with documenting those here. However, it's the gameplay that really separates Earth. Do we document how to get each type of block, if there's chances or only specific locations? What about combat? Monster spawning, if it happens? And for small stuff like the two new mobs, Earth is in a closed beta right now. It could receive lots of new features by release or in future updates. Etc, etc. It just opens up a big can of worms that we *really* aren't ready to deal with, at least not until we figure out how we're gonna deal with the already varied versions of the base game. So,, at least until we figure some more stuff out. -PancakeIdentity (talk) 00:06, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Pages for Mud and Mob of Me have been created while this discussion has fizzled out; should these be kept, and other Earth exclusives be documented? Since Earth runs on Bedrock there won't be many more of these new pages created.  Nixinova  T  C  05:54, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

The de facto consensus at the moment (based on the fact no-one seems to have said anything about the recent pages) seems to be to create pages on Earth info but not to incorporate it into main-game pages, which seems to be working. For Earth-exclusive information about main-game features I think we should add a "In Minecraft Earth" section to avoid the confusion already created by only sometimes. This discussion needs to have some sort of conclusion by now since the game is already out.  Nixinova</b> </b> T</b> </b> C</b> </b> 07:26, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Reactions to full-franchise coverage
Support:
 * 1) AttemptToCallNil – supports as the writer of the proposal (diff)
 * 2) FVbico – support (diff)
 * 3) Nixinova – conditional support (diff)
 * 4) Sealbudsman – "wouldn't be opposed" (diff)
 * 5) Memetics – support (diff)

Oppose:
 * 1) Angrydog001 – oppose (diff)
 * 2) BDJP007301 – strong oppose (diff)
 * 3) ItsPlantseed – oppose (diff)
 * 4) SagvinXC – oppose (diff)
 * 5) PancakeIdentity – conditional oppose (diff)

Other:
 * 1) Jack McKalling – could not answer the core question (diff)

Points made
For coverage of other titles on other wikis:
 * 1) It is too difficult to manage articles about similar content on one wiki when it appears in different titles with major differences.
 * 2) Other titles may have, or are known to have, radically different gameplay requiring similarly different wiki coverage, and this may be confusing to readers.
 * 3) Covering other titles will require a new set of templates for every such game/series, which is about the same as making a whole new wiki.

For full-franchise coverage on this wiki:
 * 1) It is possible to cover substantially different implementations of the same entity in different titles on the same wiki (provided examples: parenthesized disambiguations on the TES Fandom wiki and the Fallout wiki, custom content namespaces on UESP) – refutes opponents' point 1
 * 2) Having all titles under the same wiki-roof is likely to bring the community together (as opposed to potentially causing a split). There will be easier access to experienced users: those who monitor recent changes and revert bad edits, and to those who can help with wiki/technical things if needed.

Further discussion
Assuming we still want to discuss this further. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 21:09, 27 October 2019 (UTC)


 * I'd be less opposed to covering everything on this wiki if we didn't try to Frankenstein like 5 different games' version of a mob/block/whatever on to one page. It's already messy enough covering Java and Bedrock on the same page in some cases, and they're essentially the same game. I think it could work much better if we keep everything separate (even if still on this wiki) by creating separate pages (or sections on pages). If we did put everything on this wiki, I'd say we should put other games under their own namespace, like Minecraft Earth/Cluckshroom or whatever. Documenting things on the same page can be slippery. Sure, some new Minecraft Earth mobs might be similar to existing mobs, but this might not also be the case in the future. Also, there's vastly different gameplay mechanics, like obtaining blocks. I think more separation is, in this case, better than less. Not saying completely different wikis, but yeah.


 * Also, I'm much more open to have Earth on this wiki than something like Story Mode or Dungeons. Earth at least uses the Bedrock engine and has similar(ish) gameplay. Story Mode and Dungeons are much different games that are better described as using Minecraft as a setting rather than being Minecraft. -PancakeIdentity (talk) 21:36, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Sectioning is definitely a good idea if we go down the route of documenting everything on this wiki and will avoid the "$$../.." spam we have currently.  Nixinova</b> </b> T</b> </b> C</b> </b> 21:43, 27 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Reviving this, I'd support Nixinova and ATCN's ideas. My biggest concern is just mixing everything together too much. -PancakeIdentity (talk) 03:21, 5 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Of course; can't speak for other supporters, but I never meant for base game articles to provide spin-off coverage, hence the TES/Fallout examples. Though a mention of the separate article would be useful, I think. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 21:42, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Earth and Dungeons seem to be completely different games; the gameplay at MINECON Live had pretty different gameplay from standard Minecraft. Perhaps they should have their own wikis, once we learn more about them. We could still mention them in Trivia sections, similar to Story Mode. The BlobsPaper.png 22:50, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Confused idiot rambles about coverage
I've only skimmed over the furious debate that went on above, but here's my opinions on the matter that I wish to add, despite this probably making it worse.

(Java, Bedrock, Console, Pi, 3DS, etc.) - pretty sure we can all agree on this one

coverage of Earth on this wiki. While presented in a different way, MCE is at its core still a sandbox game, and shares tons of elements with the main series game - blocks, mins and the like. I currently don't see any problem with it. That being said, I haven't actually seen any MCE info be implemented into existing pages about non-MCE-exclusive objects, though, so I'd have to see such an implementation in action to make a satisfactorily informed decision. That being said, I wouldn't oppose there being a separate wiki for Earth content (earth.minecraft.gamepedia.com) if said wiki doesn't have an unreasonably high amount of duplicate content.

- Dungeons is a considerably more distant game from normal Minecraft - it's less of a differently presented version of Minecraft and more of completely different game which is designed to visually look like Minecraft. Plenty of things that would be considered notable in Minecraft terms would be completely unnotable from a Dungeons viewpoint; grass blocks have a lot of important properties in the base Minecraft game, whereas they're to my knowledge nothing more than a background object in Dungeons. (Reminds me that Story Mode had a lot of blocks in the background which are not at all present in the real game - should we document these in some form or another?) Likewise there are things in Dungeons that will not apply to the original game at all, so their notability here is questionable at best. I think it would be better overall to have Dungeons content covered over at another Gamepedia wiki (dungeons.minecraft.gamepedia.com), preferably with sufficient linking between the two wikis where desirable.

This is all probably nonsense though, so make what you will of it. - User-12316399 (talk) 16:55, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I have concerns about that you say "Document all main editions"; what qualifies an edition as main? If Mojang announce Bedrock is the "main" edition, and Java is somehow "secondary", would that affect our decision to describe that edition at all? I assume you meant all editions of the base sandbox game?
 * As for notability, it is apparently a new way to look at the issue, but I don't see how it is relevant given this wiki's scope - what this topic seeks to define, and therefore cannot address as a basis for decisions - pretty much is notability.
 * Mostly a side note as I believe the rest of my opinion on the topic of separate wikis for Earth and Dungeons is extensively documented above. I'm pretty sure making the wiki like "dungeons.minecraft.gamepedia.com" would be impossible, it would have to look like "minecraftdungeons.gamepedia.com" or something similar (that is, a further subdomain level is not something I have ever seen Gamepedia do). --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 17:36, 7 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Pretty sure we only document Bedrock, Java, and Education (with Education as a variant of Bedrock). Other editions are only documented in history sections.
 * As far as Minecraft Earth, this uses the Bedrock Codebase, so it would be documented as a variant of Bedrock Edition. It would only be specified when there is a difference from Bedrock. The BlobsPaper.png 20:47, 7 March 2020 (UTC)


 * . --dr03ramos Piston.gif (talk) Admin wiki[pt] 03:40, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Final closure: in one week
This has gone on too long. In multiple places, even. (Not to mention the Discord server - or several.)

Thus far, every point made by opponents of on-wiki coverage was either questionable or refuted. This wiki has good search engine rankings and is known as a place for Minecraft information. It has a somewhat-working infrastructure and an active community. None of this will be present on a new wiki, which furthermore will likely have to be hosted on Fandom (potentially as part of the existing MCD wiki there), because due to the UCP project, new Gamepedia wikis (with exceptions that do not seem to apply) will not be created. There needs to be a profound, as of yet unknown, factor that would make using a separate wiki a better option.

This discussion represents a commonly occurring failure of Minecraft Wiki's discussion system; where there are groups with irreconcilable views, the discussion can continue indefinitely without a conclusion. And with the beta release of Dungeons, a decision should be made promptly. As such, I consider this measure necessary.

If in one week, no such profound factor (as I stated in the second paragraph) is stated here, I consider that this topic can be closed by any user with the following resolution:
 * 1) Minecraft Earth and Minecraft Dungeons should be documented on this wiki.
 * 2) Mechanics and game elements unique to Minecraft Earth should be documented in the main namespace.
 * 3) If a similar, but different, mechanic or element exists in the base game, the Earth one gets its own article, preferring the   disambiguation format.
 * 4) All mechanics and elements of Minecraft Dungeons should be documented in the   custom namespace, which is set to a content namespace and searchable by default.
 * 5) The namespace may be renamed to   if necessary, with   made a namespace alias.
 * 6) Earth and Dungeons should only be mentioned in base game articles as short references, such as disambiguation hatnotes or short "also appears in" sections. The format may be standardized at a later date; development of a complete standard is out of scope for this discussion.

Post here any refinements to the closure text, or (far less likely) overwhelming reasons that require going in the opposite direction. --AttemptToCallNil (report bug, view backtrace) 17:44, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * . Thanks for putting an end to this. -PancakeIdentity (talk) 17:52, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * to bringing this discussion to an end and I agree with the listed resolution. Using  as a Namespace would be better though.   and maybe a shorthand like   can of course be added as aliases.   HorseHead.png Gamepedia icon.png MarkusRost (talk) 18:10, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * --Capopanzone (talk | contribs) 18:13, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * – I just finally got around to reading (most of) the discussion above, and the custom Dungeons: namespace idea seems like a good solution of avoiding clutter in base game articles (which was the main argument against covering Earth/Dungeons here, if I'm not mistaken). Editors not interested in Dungeons can hide the namespace in recent changes. Like ATCN said, we can use most of the rules/policies and infrastructure that's already in place (instead of having to set it up again on a different wiki). – Sonicwave talk  18:16, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I probably won't participate in this but rather close it after roughly a week, based on what the consensus is then (which based on what it is now would likely be to carry out the change). But we will need to decide the exact name of the namespace: Dungeons: or Minecraft Dungeons:? Either way we could have the other, as well as abbreviations such as the MCD that Markus pointed out, as a namespace alliance. The creation of a new namespace is a pretty big deal (given that it can only be done by staff) so it would be nice to be clear on what we'd name it.--Madminecrafter12 (Talk to me 18:25, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * . — Thomanski | t | c | 18:27, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * – I don't think that just using a name space for Dungeons is a good long-term solution. The game is going to grow over time, just like Minecraft itself is, and we have only had access to a small portion of the content so far, so I think we're underestimating how much there is to document. The dungeons articles will probably require a completely separate set of templates and technology to go with them, which will in my opinion cause larger issues in the future. Apart from that, not everyone interested in Minecraft will be interested in Dungeons as well, BUT there's still only one admin team that will need to take care of everything. The same can be said about earth. I'd personally prefer if both Earth and Dungeons would get their own wiki (and I personally heavily disagree with the fact that Earth is to be documented in the main namespace), but it seems like this conversation has already run its course. Btw, just saying "this discussion is taking long and the arguments against using a namespace is invalid and therefore we'll just do it that way" is not really a good way to solve a discussion in my opinion. | violine1101(Talk) 20:58, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Rethinking what I had advocated before, I'd it. I consider MCD a totally new and completely different game, but Minecraft Dungeons: seems like a plausible solution. --dr03ramos Piston.gif (talk) Admin wiki[pt] 01:57, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * - I have to agree with what violine1101 said above: "this discussion is taking long and the arguments against using a namespace is invalid and therefore we'll just do it that way" is not really a good way to solve a discussion" <font face="Ubuntu">ILeon ᐸ <small style="display:inline-block;line-height:1em;vertical-align:-0.4em">Talk Contribs -  de.Wiki Admin  08:14, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I have not been keeping up with this discussion, but I agree we should document Earth on this wiki. While it is different from the base game, the core mechanics are similar enough that we can treat it as an edition. I think it should definitely be on the same wiki.
 * For Dungeons, I agree its basically a new game. However, if we do not provide a place either on wiki or on another Gamepedia wiki, its going to lead to content ending up all over the wiki where it does not belong. Namespace sounds like a decent solution, as it makes it easy to replace the namespace with an interwiki if it does migrate to another wiki in the future. – KnightMiner  · (t) 14:22, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * this resolution. Though, how are you proposing Earth be documented in articles? An h2 "In Minecraft Earth" or something? And why not put Dungeons in mainspace with "Minecraft Dungeons" disambig (not that a namespace would be bad)?  Nixinova</b> </b> T</b> </b> C</b> </b> 08:31, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I think, this is Minecraft Wiki, where all things from Minecraft (except mods & servers) must be presented. Thankfully, this is ending. That project Minecraft Dungeons could be moved onto main NS with prefix "Dungeons:" before article name) --Treeislife2 (talk) 09:57, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * 'main NS with prefix "Dungeons:" before article name' The "...:" before an article name is a namespace... FVbico (talk) 10:16, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

bedrock edition version numbers.
should we create redirects for all the version numbers? Ex:PS4 1.16.2 was 2.02, no redirect. 1.16.0.2 has no redirect either. (android 1.16.0 versiom number). and 1.16.2.0, win 10 1.16.0 version number. There are sooooo many more but like we already have redirects for PS4 2.01, 2.02, and 2.07, so is it worth the effort?? like new people might see the version number but be confused when theres just a red link. Humiebee 01:10, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * For PS4 versions, I think it would be fine, but 4 digit versions cannot be searched on the wiki, so those can't be made redirects. <b style="border:1px solid #0800aa"> Nixinova </b> <b style="border:1px solid #06f"> T </b> <b style="border:1px solid #0af"> C </b>  01:15, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
 * created all the redirects ---HumiebeeDiscuss anything with me Look at my edits 16:14, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Ditto Nixinova. Additionally, these pages should note at the top that they are the same version. -PancakeIdentity (talk) 05:41, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

file 'Revisions'
I propose to change ALL revision files, aka ones that say like idk, ex:cake revision 1.png like why. why not cake je1 be1.png it's so inconsistant like some are revision # but others are JE# BE#. Please, move all the block and item files to be consistantl Humiebeetalk contributions 21:12, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * They're all in the process of being moved to JEx BEy, it's just a tedious process. <b style="border:1px solid #0800aa"> Nixinova </b> <b style="border:1px solid #06f"> T </b> <b style="border:1px solid #0af"> C </b>  21:15, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

What is the point for interwiki
like why put interwiki when it's not even visible?---HumiebeeDiscuss anything with me Look at my edits 19:21, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure that when you look for a page in another language, it lists the corresponding pages based on interwikis. The BlobsPaper.png 19:24, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It is visible; on desktop, in the sidebar, in desktop view on phones, at the far bottom of the page (above the copyright) and mobile view adds a button at the top op the page, which opens a menu with the languages. FVbico (talk) 20:27, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't see it---HumiebeeDiscuss anything with me Look at my edits 20:31, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * wait nvm the side bar, oh i see. So all the interwiki links are placed in the sidebar---HumiebeeDiscuss anything with me Look at my edits 20:36, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You can also make a normal link to a different language section, by placing  before the language prefix, as in  . — <b style="line-height:19px;letter-spacing:1px"> Babylon  A S </b> *Happy Camper* 12:16, 18 August 2020 (UTC)