Talk:Tutorials/TNT cannons/Archive 1

This is an English Wiki So pls let it AMMUNITION not MUNITION

-Munition - Materials used in war, especially weapons and ammunition.

-Ammunition - A supply or quantity of bullets and shells.

-Those are two completely separate words and should not be interchanged.

?Maximum Delay Increases Distance?

When using TNT as the projectile, I've noticed it consistently travels further when the projectile TNT was activated the moment the booster detonates. Specifically a delay of 10 repeaters set to 4. Kmwillia 12:52, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

00:20, 14 June 2012 (UTC)00:20, 14 June 2012 (UTC)~

Yes, R4.10 is the maximum delay, And achieves the maximum Range for a cannon without changing anything else.

This article is obsolete
As of the latest updates it is not possible to make TNT Cannons (at least not like this). So should this article mark as obsolete? --The mr Zalli from Finland 22:16, 7 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree, this page is rather outdated. It needs a rewrite. I don't agree, however, that cannons can't be made "like this" anymore (a variety of methods are covered here; most aren't my first choice, but whatevs), as they can indeed. [|Cactus Master] 02:50, 22 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Wrong! each of these cannons work, i tried it myself!

76.27.210.111 21:57, 28 May 2012 (UTC)


 * That is very wrong. Many of these things are true, especially the part about mounting blocks and condensation. The example cannon is outdated as of 1.1, but still functions as a short range anti-infantry cannon. Edit: I do see your point though in terms of rewrite. Edit 2: Working on it!

ArkEneru 01:27, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

42.2.22.32 06:18, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The thing is that I've tried to make TNT cannons, and since a recent update, the TNT blocks seems to randomly shift left or right when primed each time, resulting in a very erratic firing range and location. Condensing the charge does help to improve the situation a bit, but the TNT cannon is too unreliable to work as anti-infantry. The cannon works all right, but it isn't as good as before. --

While this problem can be easily fixed by adding a guide block(s). You are right, TNT does shift a little, but not in a problematic way if you add guide blocks. If you add a guide, it can work as anti-infantry, or better.

ArkEneru 18:23, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

"I find no problem with current TNT tech, Just add guide blocks as explained. This can, may, and will interfere with some redstone, but i have always found workarounds. All this info is useful. I have made extremely effective anti-infantry cannons in my time, all recently. Granted, the TNT randomness is slightly annoying, but it can be useful to aid spread in wide-impact area cannons." -Creeper&#39;s Nemisis 20:30, 30 June 2012 (UTC)CreepersNemisis

Correct. In fact, TNT cannons today can do more damage than ever before. The workarounds that Creepers Nemisis mentioned are almost always easy to find. With just a minor tweak, the cannons under question can be firing accurately again. ArkEneru 15:31, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Cannon Range Equation
Ok, so before I give you the numbers, let me first explain how I went about this. I used my Ramses Cannon to test this (link provided so you can see the details of the platform). I tested range at elevations of .5 blocks, 1 block, and 1.5 blocks, as I considered these the practical range of elevations. I used charges from 1-7 tnt for each elevation. I recorded the distance for each shot from each pairing of elevation and charge size. I then took that data and using magic created the following equation. Do remember that it isn't perfect, as it assumes that your target is on the same plane as your cannon. I'm working on altering the equation to account for changes in this.

EQUATION f(x, w) = 13.0539 + cos(0.35123932 - x)/(32.091557 - 15.533575/cos(18.448326*w - x) - 47.684593*x) + 11.635796*w*cos(0.35123932 - x) - 3.8064015*x*cos(18.448326*w - x) - 12.089317*cos(18.448326*w - x) - 11.635796*x

STATISTICS:

r^2: 0.997904

Maximum error: 3.374008

Minimum error: 3.8147^-6

Reply: You have not indicated the repeater lengths, which is another varible. As someone has said up there, the delay length matters very much. ArkEneru 20:27, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

This is more for testing purposes than actual use in combat (my server's battles are too fast for such nonsense), as unless you've got an application built to do so (I made a quick C++ for it), plugging in the numbers is a bit tedious. I feel like a better equation could potentially be derived if more data is used, but I'm pressed for time. If someone would want to help me make a better equation, I suggest using the Ramses in a no-lag environment and measuring elevations of 0, 2, 2.5, and 3 with 1-7 tnt charges. I do, however, not see the point in ever actually equipping a cannon with elevations at the extremes; they are useful in only a handful of situations in battle (and can be accomplished by specialized equipment much easier). Please tell me what you think. My goal for the equation is to be included on the actual page after validation and such by all necessary parties. Thanks for reading.

How the acceleration of gravity (7.5M/S/S) is calculated??
The article referred that "TNT falls at a constant acceleration of 7.5 m/s/s, an important number for predicting the range and drop of the shot"

I have some questions about this. First, how the Measure of "meter" in this blocky game is defined? Dose the author means "blocks"?? Second, what is more important, I’ve developed a experiment to measure the acceleration of gravity in the game(which means I do not use any tools that out side the game) and I've got some statistics which indicate that the sand will get into a constant speed of 2blocks/tic when falls about 10 blocks away. But unfortunately, the experiment is not accurate enough to calculate the actual number of this acceleration.

I'm here to ask if anyone has a method to get the accurate number of the acceleration of gravit? If so, please contact me at peterdengjr@gmail.com –Preceding unsigned comment was added by Woshizhu99 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 13:43, 30 April 2012‎. Please sign your posts with


 * Your measurement is close; the actual acceleration and maximum speed are at Entity (pulled from decompiled source code). Looks like the 7.5 m/s/s figure was added by an anonymous user - I'll remove it, as it's quite wrong. -- Orthotope 04:55, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Names
I like ArkEneru's TNT page, it has some very useful information, but I need some help. I do not completely understand the naming process. It is very confusing. Can somebody please expand on ArkEneru's explanation for to me. That would be very helpful.

An example of two cannon names are ArkEneru's 119.3R4.10M6 Ares and 112.0MM3 Ironwall Anti-Infantry cannon.

CommanderLOL 20:22, 13 June 2012 (UTC)CommanderLOL

00:14, 14 June 2012 (UTC)ArkEneru Hey! Saw your comment, maybe this can help:

Charge= TNT used to fire a projectile Shot= said projectile, usually TNT Vertical row of TNT= Well, harder to explain. Say, in the example cannon, it has 1. If it had another row of TNT above that row, it would be 2, etc

119.3R4.10M6 Ares

119.3 = 1 row of vertical TNT (the same as the one button medium range cannon), 1 shot, 9 charge, 3 condensation charge. R4.10 = 10 repeaters each with the full setting of delay. M6 = The mounting block code is 6, which means fence post and pressure plate. Ares = Nickname

112.0MM3 Anti-Infantry Ironwall

112.0 = 1 vertical row of TNT, 1 shot, 2 charge, no condensation charge M = manual, no repeaters or other form of delay ( such as minecarts, dispensers (heh)) M3 = Mounting block code for Half block. Anti-Infantry = Descripition of use, not mandatory. Ironwall = Nickname

Hopes that helps! If it dosent, maybe you could post a Descripition of your cannon, and I could show you how to name it.

--Ark ArkEneru 20:27, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Ark

CommanderLOL 02:50, 14 June 2012 (UTC)CommanderLOL

Your welcome. So it helped? Glad to know. Just ask if you have any more questions.

ArkEneru 03:04, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

''"Um, just saying, this naming system is really confusing. I would propose a system much clearer, at least clearly separating the bits of data. For example, I would suggest instead a common name with info common folks want to know, like [# of TNT in shot][range estimate(s/m/l/x)][arc type(h/m/l/n)] [nickname], so a typical single shot 7 TNT cannon with a half-slab shotblock would be 1mm Basic. So you could say 'This cannon shoots 1 tnt medium range with a medium arc' Then there would be a technical name for those guys like us, which would be like [# charge tnt]:[# charge layers]:[# shot tnt]:[shot distance]:[spread(n/a/m/w/r)]:[arc type(h/m/l/f/f&p)] [nickname] [condensation system? (Focused)] or something, so that same cannon would be 7:1:1:104:n:m Basic. THis gets around the problem i find with the presented system: the numbers run together and confuse themselves. for example 234 could mean 23,4 or 2,34. I would explain a lot more but i have limited time at the moment. I plan on further reaserching and explaining a perhaps diferent system from the one i presented, that was off the top of my head. Input would help me =D"'' -Creeper&#39;s Nemisis 20:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC)CreepersNemisis

(Please read this all I'm not critizing you just explains a little. I've had problems with people not doing that in the past. Thanks!)

Thanks for the feedback, I was right about to get around to changing the system when you mentioned this. But the system you offered would not work. Some faults in it are:


 * The arc of a cannon is explained by the MB, and if it has an special component it will have a Mortar label right before the nickname.
 * The shot distance is explained by MB, charge/charge layers, and conden charge.
 * In Minecraft, there are two people (right now) that you can define in cannons: People who don't like cannons and people who like them enough to use the full name. So if there ever is a common folk, I think they would just call a cannon by it's nickname.
 * One minor thing, when building the cannon, the condensation charge is not something you can just decide to stick on as an after though. In your system, the conden charge is said right after the nickname, and it is just focused/not focused. The conden charge is a large part of a cannon and if say you were building one and forgot that there was a condensation charge, you would probably have to start over.

I have been working in a better naming system for a long time because of the probllems that you explained. Many times, it would be hard to tell where the numbers are separated. Such as in my longer range cannons, they have in the triple digits of charge, it gets very confusing. I am thinking of something more just moved around, such as

Instead of a 116.0R4.7MB3

Bum ba pa!!!! Preeeeesenting my suggestedddddddd naming system!

1R4.7M3-1/6.0

1 shot, 7 full repeaters, 3rd mounting block, 1 vertical layer of TNT, 6 charge, no conden charge. It separates each bit of info more, and it separates the shot info on one side and charge info on another.

This is just an example to you guys. I you do not like it, tell me. This is where the cannon experts decide the naming future for cannons. This one will probably become the standard in the next few days. If you do not like the first example and have something different to offer, I am open to suggestions. ArkEneru 16:16, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Semi-Automatic versus Automatic delay
Maybe this is not common knowledge, but just because a cannon has one button to activate all the redstone does not make it semi-automatic. The term for that is called automatic delay. Ive made a few semi automatic and automatic designs, and those are called automatic because they actually reload the TNT immediately after each shot. In terms of firing/reloading, the tiers go like this:

Hope that helps you guys understand!
 * Manual: Must activate charge and shot sepreatly and manually, eg no delay, must reload TNT after every shot manually.
 * Automatic delay: Charge and shot are activated automatically, eg delay of some sort, must reload TNT after every shot manually.
 * Semi-Automatic: Charge and shot are activated automatically, TNT is reloaded after every shot, must press button to fire shot after every shot (ooooh so much work!)
 * Fully automatic: Charge and shot are activated automatically, TNT is reloaded after every shot, once you press the button, it keeps firing until you press the button again.

--Ark ArkEneru 00:48, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Rewite
As of right now (as I wright this post) The article has been mostly re-written by yours truly to be updated with the current Minecraft version and the current level of cannon science. There are still a few things that haven't been re-written, such as the mounting block descriptions, but it's happening. I will update this post according to how close it is to being finished. Also, if you have any questions, post them as replies here. I'll try to get back to you ASAP.

--Ark

ArkEneru 01:34, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Some of the content breaks the Wiki rules. The videos aren't necessary and therefore should be removed. If you still want them included, link them. All of your signatures could constitute as spam and advertising, and you are not part of Mojang, so those have to go too.Frogjg2003 02:09, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I didn't post the vids. About sig, I thought it said that I was supposed to, but.. Okay. ArkEneru 02:46, 14 June 2012

For the talk pages, you are supposed to use signatures. I was referring to the fact that your name appears 7 times in the article itself. The last time doesn't even indicate your work; its function would be better served with an "In use" template. http://www.minecraftwiki.net/wiki/Template:In_use frogjg2003 03:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The reason we don't put signatures in articles is that claiming ownership of text discourages others from editing it. Edits that improve an article often reorganize text and combine separate things, meaning adding signatures to each individual part would be a lot of noise that makes it hard to read the text. I see you proposed leaving them until major changes are made — but think about how you would feel to people making “minor” changes to the text with your name on it! Or, someone might not edit at all because they were worried about either leaving your name on or taking it out inappropriately. So, we sidestep all of this by keeping credit in the article's history, not in the article. A wiki is a place for everyone to make one good document, not for everyone's individual contributions to be recognized (though good work is noted by people who read Recent Changes and occasionally commended, and your name is forever in the page history).


 * As to the in use template, you use it by writing, with curly brackets, at the top of the page. I just tested that out in preview and it seems to be working fine.


 * —kpreid 19:09, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much for explaining. It does make sense, but it did not the way that other guy was explaining it. I'm only trying to help here; I don't need that other guy to come and say its breaking the rules. An enlightened ArkEneru 20:20, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Okay, everything us up to date with the innovations of now, except the mounting block descriptions, which I am debating wether or not to rewrite some of them. Of course, there are many more things to come in cannon science, so this page of far from finished! ArkEneru 03:57, 15 June 2012 (UTC)