Talk:Nether Fortress

Origin of Nether Ruins
I remember reading an interview or quote by Notch a while ago, that said he wanted the Nether to be like 'The Ways', in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, which is a place characters could enter into all over the world by passing through portals. Inside was a gloomy dangerous place, of tiny floating islands interconnected by a series of BRIDGES, and moving a short distance in the ways covered a large distance in the real world. Methinks that is what these 'nether ruins' are, so I don't know if you should expect to see more than just bridges, if he is sticking to a WoT like idea –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.233.43.103 (Talk) 04:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC). Please sign your posts with
 * If he wanted to make it more like the books then he should have made the entrances randomly spawned, the bridges much more confusing and random, and made it nearly pitch black. -that would have been really cool. -also stones that tell you where to go in the old tongue. lol Theesexiestman 08:16, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Nether Well
I'll just leave this right here. –Preceding unsigned comment was added by Weregoose (Talk&#124;Contribs) 18:15, 22 September 2011 (UTC). Please sign your posts with Here is a suggestion from ppaxson, larger nether wells!!! –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.3.243.91 (Talk) 01:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC). Please sign your posts with

Another name than 'Nether Ruins'?
I would prefer the name 'Nether Fort' or 'Nether Castle' instead of 'Nether Ruins' because of the look... Someone agree? Kingy98 14:19, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Sounds lamer than "ruins", IMO. Cobalt32 14:09, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Nether Fortress
Jeb recently edited his own article on the Wiki and referred to these structures as "Nether Fortresses." I'd say this is official enough to warrant renaming the article, since Jeb is primarily the one who developed them. Siphida 11:18, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Seconded Theesexiestman 08:16, 2 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Second, much better name IMO --DarkFlame588 17:19, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Are these rare?
I have searched very far and not found one, so are they at least semi-rare? Theesexiestman 08:16, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. I used creative and it was a good 5 minutes before i found one (about 500 blocks from where i entered with a portal) while flying. I guess theyre kinda like strongholds. I wonder how many spawn per world? --HexZyle 10:39, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that this is a structure, not a block or vain. they are not hard to find as long as you are out in the open area of the nether and have your render distance set to far or normal, but if you don't see one close to your portal, you have a very long hike in the nether to make.--98.89.71.93 22:18, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I am still playing my first world (v1.2.6) and looked 1Km in each compass point directions (2km along f=0) and still have not found one! I do not want to use a cheat, but I am reaching a point where I may have to! --Antofthy 02:25, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Uh oh... i never did find one in my last game, but I hadn't gotten that far in the Nether. It looks like I've got a tough slog ahead.... --Mental Mouse 17:44, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * ETA: I eventually found one, some 400-odd blocks away from my initial entry and in the middle of the lava sea.  It was a tough slog, and to build the bridge I eventually had to invoke peaceful mode against the Ghasts. --Mental Mouse 20:59, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Lava slime spawning
I've explored an extensive Nether fortress, and I've found exactly zero lava slimes in it. I've seen several of them elsewhere, though. Is this enough to remove the "lava slime spawn rates may be increased" stuff? Jaeil 00:48, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I see magma cubes all over the place. It just seems like they spawn not as often as other nether mobs, rather than "only in nether fortresses/more likely in nether fortresses" --HexZyle 13:03, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Someone came up with spawn percentages that indicated there ought to be a lot of magma cubes, but others comment they don't see any. It occurs to me, that given they're immune to lava and fall damage, perhaps they're jumping off the walkways? --Mental Mouse 01:11, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Average walkway altitude
Is the altitude of the walkway always near the same for these structures, or can they be found at a variety of hights.--98.89.71.93 22:22, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Looking at the graph on the Altitude page, and assuming that the lower altitudes are mostly columns, I figure the walkways are probably mostly between altitudes 50-70, with some up to 90. Haven't found one myself yet.  :-( --Mental Mouse 12:35, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Nether Ruins!
Nether Ruins are the main thing as Nether Fortresses, but is generated inside a netherrack hill. These Nether Ruins often contain a lava well, or so. Ex, Stairwell with growing nether warts. –Preceding unsigned comment was added by Defaultio (Talk&#124;Contribs) 02:37, 18 November 2011 (UTC). Please sign your posts with

Is this based on official word from Mojang or are you just making this up? Cobalt32 04:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)


 * There are no Nether Ruins, in the sense that there is no difference between them and Nether Fortresses. The official name is "Nether Fortress", so that's what we use; "Nether Ruins" was a fan name used until the official name was confirmed. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 19:23, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Nether Ruins Facts!
Well, Nether Ruins [Nether Fort], have many spawner rooms spawning, Magma Cubes, and Blaze. These rooms are made of Netherrack, or Nether Brick items. {EX. (Nether Bricks, Nether Brick Stairs} –Preceding unsigned comment was added by Defaultio (Talk&#124;Contribs) 02:44, 18 November 2011 (UTC). Please sign your posts with

Correction, there are no Lava cube spawners that I know of or have ever seen, only Blaze spawners. [Fangar5 8/20/12] –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.161.173.155 (Talk) 09:27, 20 August 2012 (UTC). Please sign your posts with

well ure wrong then caus me and my friend found some in our fort and killed them. [kingangus67 2/12/12 nz] –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 115.188.211.3 (Talk) 06:32, 2 December 2012 (UTC). Please sign your posts with

If a minecraft world was created in 1.8 or 1.8.1, Nether Fortresses will not generate?
The trivia section says "If a minecraft world was created in 1.8 or 1.8.1, Nether Fortresses will not generate." Can anyone confirm or cite that? Is this specific to 1.8, or something that applies to any world < 1.9?

I don't expect them to appear in existing blocks, but it doesn't make sense for them to not exist in newly generated world blocks. 24.87.51.64 11:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It's just a poorly-worded statement pointing out that Nether Fortresses don't get added in chunks that were generated pre-1.9. The game doesn't do version-based feature locks on maps. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 18:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Distinction Between Strongholds and Nether Fortress Numbers
There's a question that this wiki so far hadn't answered. I want to know if fortresses confine to the same "3 Per World" rule as Strongholds because of the similarities between the two. If there is any information about this, I would like it added to the wiki. Thanks. Technologics 23:42, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

No, there can be an unlimited number of them. Nether fortresses are randomly generated features, not epic end game event areas like the strongholds. [Fangar5 4:22am, 20 August 2012] –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.161.173.155 (Talk) 09:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC). Please sign your posts with

Bug, not trivia
"Nether Fortresses will still be generated even if the "Generated Structures" option is turned off."

Why is this listed under trivia and not bugs; it's a bug if you ask me. I just don't want to change it because it might be there for a reason. Pickledineen 18:58, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaphs because it is the only way to obtain nether wart and find blazes. –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.208.25.252 (Talk) 19:54, 17 February 2012 (UTC). Please sign your posts with

Then why don't Strongholds generate? It is the only way to get to the end... + 1 for listing it under bugs. –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 78.23.50.226 (Talk) 16:43, 3 August 2012 (UTC). Please sign your posts with

Agreed, it should be listed under bugs if you ask me. 184.1.103.140 02:53, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Definition of Walkway for spawning
The article says that fortress mobs will spawn up to 7 blocks above the walkway, and horizontally spanning the entire chunk (assuming a block to stand on).

What is defined as the "walkway"? Is it just the floor, or do the ledges count as well? Also, can they spawn below the walkway? And can I alter the y coordinate of the walkway - like if I trim off 1 layer from the top of the walkway (making the new walkway 1 block lower), will fortress mobs stop spawning?

Thanks -23.24.55.162 17:43, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I've done a little bit of experimenting in creative on a fortress. I cleared out the "walkway" on about 6 chunks, and then placed a platform 1 block below the original "walkway" and another platform 1 block above the original walkway such that there was a 2 gap space between. These platforms spanned the entire widths of the chunks. Within a minute, I had blazes spawning on both the lower and upper platforms. This only puts the wording on more unstable grounds.
 * So, I decided to look through the logs of this page to see who wrote that wording, and found that it appeared in early September 2012 by User:Kizzycocoa in basically its current state, and the writer said "Coders: please help us to expand this section!". He then revised it a little shortly afterwords, removing a part that mentioned hollowing out the legs to be ineffective.
 * In conclusion, this wording about the spawn algorithm is insufficient and we need some help clearing it up. --Kahless61 20:30, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I've found this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR6oATNOFSw and it's a guy who uses the spawning algorithm to create a Wither Skeleton farm. He seems to have a pretty solid grasp of the spawning algorithm, and it differs significantly from what this article says. --Kahless61 15:27, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Minecraft Xbox - No guaranteed Nether Fortress per World?
I've heard of a rumor floating around that newly generated worlds in Minecraft for the Xbox 360 don't have a 100% chance of having a Nether Fortress generated in the Nether, I'm just curious, is this rumor confirmed or not?

It seems to be leaning heavily towards true, I've seen many posts here and there about not finding a Nether Fortress no matter how much one looks around in the Nether, via creative mode or otherwise.

I've also heard a bug fix patch will be coming early after New Years to remedy the problem, (aka Jeb fix Notch's game!) but I really want to know if this is indeed a confirmed bug and if its something worth mentioning on the Nether Fortress/Xbox 360 Mincraft page.

- Jake Command Wolf


 * This tweet suggests that this bug does indeed exist, but will be fixed in the next update. The Xbox 360 Edition upcoming features page lists what has been confirmed about future updates (admittedly, not much at the moment). -- Orthotope 06:36, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Okie-dokie-lokie, thanks for the quick reply, I greatly appreciate not being left hanging, but I'm just curious if you have heard/seen the exact date the bug fix patch is scheduled to be released?


 * Knowing Mojang it will a when-ever-ish time between now and 2-3 weeks, or when ever Notch reminds Jeb to do it, lol... :D


 * - Jake Command Wolf


 * 4J Studios will probably tweet when they've submitted the update to Microsoft for testing. Someone at Microsoft will release it once it passes, which usually takes 1-2 weeks, possibly longer if there are issues. It would be nice to know in advance when updates will be released, but we don't. -- Orthotope 03:57, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Redirect
Can somebody teach me how to make a Redirect? I think Nether Fortresses (plural) should redirect to Nether Fortress. -Fred071202 70.117.157.41 16:36, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * A redirect isn't really necessary; if you want to link the plural form, just use " ", which is displayed as Nether Fortresses. -- Orthotope talk 19:25, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Redirects from plural forms are useful, as they allow readers to navigate directly to articles by typing the plural form into the search box, not to mention the possibility of links from other sites pointing to the plural forms (speaking from personal experience, links from other sites to redirects happens far more often than you'd think). In that regards, I actually disagree with their recent systematic delinking and deletion (in general, there is no point to deleting redirects that aren't inaccurate or harmful in some way), and would actually argue that it has more potential to be harmful than helpful, though it didn't really bother me enough to speak up. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 19:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I did not think of those redirects that way. This especially makes sense for much older plural titles where the article existed for quite some time as that title. In a present context though, plural redirects should not be made. Even if someone begins to type in the search, the auto search list that pops up will have what they need before they finish.  20:08, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I type it in the address bar, not the search bar. hotdogPi-t--c--Try my quiz! Do not click! 21:54, 28 May 2013 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Also speaking from personal experience, it can be quite easy to set your mind on a particular search term and then type it out and immediately hit "enter" or click the search button without giving any consideration to the search suggestions (HotdogPi raises a good point about typing URLs directly, as well). ;) You might argue that we shouldn't encourage new plural redirects to be created (or older ones recreated), and I would agree to an extent, but with the added caveat that if someone does start creating them, we don't necessarily discourage it unless it gets to the point of disruption or excessiveness (and even then, we should make it clear that we are not discouraging the creation of redirects, so much as encouraging the use of common sense in their creation). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 21:57, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Nether Fortress: Possible to make a home?
I'm thinking of making the Nether Castle my home! Only bad thing is that the Ghasts...you know, blow you into bits. Is there anything else that is invinsible to ghast fireball than cobblestone? Maybe if there is, I could make a sort of roof for the bridges. You see, I cleared out all the netherrack stuff around the castle; The whole castle is exposed, and it is HUGE. It's like two castles, as it had said. So...I think if there is a way to get rid of the ghasts or to be protected, than I could live there, and it would be awesome!

71.61.28.8 19:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)


 * You can see information about safe materials from ghast fireballs at Ghast. There's quite a few materials - generally anything with a blast resistance higher than 20.17. Also, remember that, as long as you're inside and a ghast can't see you, the walls are relatively safe, since they won't be shot at unless you go outside and they get hit by a stray fireball. --Kahless61 16:44, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yup -- basically you can use almost any sort of stone (not sandstone or quartz, but in 1.6 hardened clay will do) or brick, with iron doors, and iron bars or nether-brick fences for windows. See Tutorials/Nether_survival for more tips -- the big limit is the few critical supplies that need to come from the Overworld.  Notably, no ores (except quartz), no sugar cane (paper), and of course no water.
 * ETA: Oh yeah, you also have to deal with Blazes and Wither Skeletons spawning around the fortress as well as the usual ZPs and occasional Magma Cubes. --Mental Mouse 18:10, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Fortress in overworld
I was flying around in my Creative Mode world, looking for a small island to build on, and I found this.



How is that even possible? ᐸ Talk Contribs  13:51, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * A ways back I remember seeing reports of glitches where parts of the Nether appeared in the Overworld. Looks like those are back, and you got really lucky with that.  Were there any blaze spawners or Nether Wart? --Mental Mouse 16:43, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


 * This is not a "normal" Nether Fortress(if you don't count the fact that it's in the Overworld). There were three more Nether Fortresses not too far from there. There were six blaze spawners and two Nether Wart rooms. The fortresses also appeared in some other oceans. I don't know if I changed the files in minecraft.jar when I went in it to get textures, but this specific world is NOT normal. I also spawned on top of a village house, which had a lava lake under one of the farms, yet it didn't burn down. There were also strangely large oceans, and a Desert Pyramid in a mushroom biome that was nowhere close to an ocean. There was also a jungle biome that was only big enough for two 2x2 block trees, and a small island with a hole going down to bedrock. A swamp biome had three witch huts, with one on top of another and the other under a tree. There was an island with completely flat land and bluish grass. The biome said "Sky", but the sky wasn't black like it should be. Just seriously corrupted? Meeples10 signature.png ᐸ Talk Contribs  17:09, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The seed is 12 and I was playing 1.5.2, unmodded except for MCEdit, which I haven't even used yet. Meeples10 signature.png ᐸ Talk Contribs  17:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it's corrupted. I just created a creative-mode world with seed "12" in 1.5.2 (using Magic Launcher and Optifine), and spawned in a ordinary-looking jungle next to a swamp and an ocean.  Flew around a bit and found a taiga.  Just for kicks, do you have coords for one of the Fortresses? --Mental Mouse 20:51, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


 * The one in the picture is at X610 and Z-297, when flying where the screenshot was taken. Meeples10 signature.png ᐸ Talk Contribs  22:48, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I just remade the world after I realized I'd managed to muff the seed. Still spawned in normal-looking jungle, with taiga and extreme hills nearby.  No house, no lava in sight.  Those coordinates are indeed ocean, but no fortress -- there is a patch of clay on the ocean floor.  (PS:  Underwater glowstone with night vision looks mighty weird --  casts an orange glow!)  I think your world is corrupted somehow. --Mental Mouse 23:27, 26 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I went exploring later yesterday, and I found:


 * 40-50 block deep oceans
 * A desert village in a jungle, with a desert next to it
 * Two villages side-by-side (since villages only have one well each)
 * A house in one of these villages had another house stacked on top of it
 * A hole on a tiny island, with a MASSIVE cavern under it (I can get a screenshot of that for you, because I'm going to use it here)


 * Meeples10 signature.png <font face="Arial">ᐸ <small style="display:inline-block;line-height:1em;vertical-align:-0.4em"><font color="#000000">Talk <font color="#000000">Contribs  13:33, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

GOOD NETHER FORTRESS SEED NEEDED!!!
Are there some seeds that have more Nether Fortresses than others? I would need this for Survival... I particularly want one with many Blaze Monster Spawners. Please add the seeds below. Enderderp572 15:08, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Explanation of mob spawning
Regarding this revert by User:MrN9k:

I've included links to the 1.7.10 code here since I haven't seen even obfuscated disassembly for 1.8 posted yet, but the relevant code in 1.8 hasn't changed to affect the description here except in one place noted specifically. The way mob spawning in Minecraft works is that the game first decides where to spawn the general category of mobs and then fetches the specific mob to spawn.. That code fetches the list of possible mobs from the chunk provider, which for the Nether is. As you can see there, when spawning hostile mobs it does two different checks to decide whether to return the fortress-specific mob list rather than the one for the general Nether. As you can see, the description in the article is correct. HTH. Anomie x (talk) 11:30, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The first goes through each individual piece of the fortress, and returns true if the spawn location is within the bounds of that piece.
 * The second has two parts, both of which must return true:
 * It finds the first fortress in the list of fortresses (for fortresses the d method is always true), and returns true if the spawn location is horizontally within the bounds of the entire fortress. In 1.8 this changed to also test the Y coordinate (which change also caused MC-58363).
 * The block under the spawn location must be nether brick.
 * He dude. Thanks for leaving a message rather than just hitting the old undo.. ... My issue specifically is with the statement: "and that the block under the spawn location is nether brick".  IMO that is wrong.  I looked at your links and saw nothing which suggests that only nether brick can spawn mobs in fortresses.  Please show me more?  I am playing 1.8 now and I am spawning mobs on various different blocks.  NOT just nether brick.  Most of the wither skeleton videos on youtube do NOT use just nether brick.  You have seen them right?  You can make a wither farm out of most blocks....  Those all spawn mobs.  Obviously one of us is not understanding something, or perhaps we are confused over wording.  IMO the statement "and that the block under the spawn location is nether brick" is an old wives tale and simply should be removed.  I will not revert you further now, but I request that you check your information on this as I think you are mistaken.  Thanks again. MrN9k (talk)


 * Where you say "I am spawning mobs on various different blocks", do you mean the game is spawning them naturally or are you using spawn eggs/slash commands?
 * &mdash; EthanCentaurai &middot; 12:38, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Natural spawning.
 * In...

public List getMobsFor(EnumCreatureType enumcreaturetype, int i, int j, int k) { if (enumcreaturetype == EnumCreatureType.MONSTER) { if (this.c.b(i, j, k)) { return this.c.b; }

if (this.c.d(i, j, k) && this.o.getType(i, j - 1, k) == Blocks.NETHER_BRICK) { return this.c.b; }       }

The line "if (this.c.d(i, j, k) && this.o.getType(i, j - 1, k) == Blocks.NETHER_BRICK) {" appears at odds with what is seen in practice. If this was correct then all wither skeleton spawners would need to be made ONLY out of nether brick. Clearly this is not the case. It is possible for mobs to spawn on most blocks so long as they meet the other criteria for nether fortress spawning.

From what I can tell KaboPC is still pretty accurate as per https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcQzqk_8OTo. I see the decompiled code, and assume that some kind of mistake has been made here. Possibly just with the understanding of choice of words. :) MrN9k (talk)
 * "It is possible for mobs to spawn on most blocks so long as they meet the other criteria for nether fortress spawning" is exactly right. Your wither skeleton spawners that aren't using nether brick are relying on the first criterion, as they should since the second criterion's weird "only the first fortress in the game's list of all fortresses" makes it difficult to rely on. But there has been discussion of such farms, see this for example (and these are now broken in 1.8 since it no longer ignores the Y coordinate).
 * But since it is possible for the first check to be false while the second is true, we can't just ignore the nether brick check as you seem to be thinking we could. The disassembled code is correct, the mistake is in your understanding. Anomie x (talk) 14:48, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * BTW, something that seems to be clear in your mind but not in your comments is that mobs will still spawn even if both checks fail, it's just that they'll be the mobs you find everywhere in the Nether rather than the ones you find only in Nether Fortresses. Anomie x (talk) 14:51, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Since we appear to agree that "and that the block under the spawn location is nether brick" is incorrect in practice when actually playing the game (due to whatever reasons) can we remove the incorrect line of text from the article now? MrN9k (talk) 15:02, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * No, we don't agree on that because that's wrong. Obviously you still aren't understanding how it works, so I'll put it as simply as possible. There are two ways for Nether Fortress mobs to spawn. The first doesn't care what the block is. The second does. Anomie x (talk) 16:25, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * You said "But since it is possible for the first check to be false while the second is true". I can't see how that is the case. The code you pointed me to was this:

public List getMobsFor(EnumCreatureType enumcreaturetype, int i, int j, int k) { if (enumcreaturetype == EnumCreatureType.MONSTER) { if (this.c.b(i, j, k)) { return this.c.b; }

if (this.c.d(i, j, k) && this.o.getType(i, j - 1, k) == Blocks.NETHER_BRICK) { return this.c.b; }

Assuming this is correct then when the line "if (this.c.b(i, j, k))" is executed it will return the same result as when "if (this.c.d(i, j, k)" is included as part of the later expression "if (this.c.d(i, j, k) && this.o.getType(i, j - 1, k) == Blocks.NETHER_BRICK)".

Assuming the code you linked me to is an accurate representation of what actually happens then I can't see how it's possible for the second test to pass and not the first. My point here is to try to make this article and wording more clear and easy to understand for other readers. Perhaps you could link me to something which shows (in practice) the requirement for nether brick actually making a difference to mob spawning. That would be an education to me. :) MrN9k (talk) 18:10, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Method  is not the same as method  ; it's entirely possible for one to return true while the other returns false. As for the difference, the first spawning algorithm checks to see if the location is within the narrow bounding box around each component of any nether fortress. The second algorithm draws a large bounding box around the entire extent of one particular fortress and checks if the spawning location is within that larger box and on top of nether brick; this can include many areas that wouldn't be allowed under the first algorithm. -- Orthotopetalk 18:46, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh. Bother. Yes. You are correct. Thank you Orthotope for your polite reply. I was looking but not seeing with the code... I was seeing a 'b' instead of a 'd' in the second and thought both tests to be the same when obviously they are not. That said, I would be curious to discover what those "many areas that wouldn't be allowed under the first algorithm" are.  Any further information on that?  As I say, I personally have never seen any kinda spawning which required nether brick to actually be in a particular place.  Can you link me to something where this is actually demonstrated?  I suspect others might be interested to see that also. MrN9k (talk) 20:33, 7 September 2014 (UTC)