Talk:Tutorials/Griefing prevention

Outdated?
This article is incredibly outdated --TheBix 12:47, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality
should be careful to keep this article NEUTRAL. Having an anti-griefer stance, while it is the opinion of most minecraft users, is not proper on a wiki. Remember this article is here for information purposes, it is not to help nor hinder griefing. --Peroggi 05:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Everything beyond the first paragraph should probably be culled for relevance then. It's not an explanation of griefing--it's a shopping list of things for griefers to do.  For example, "Social Engineering" isn't a type of griefing, it's a technique someone might use to further their goal of griefing.  "Sanding"?  Seriously?  ...and "time"?  They're all but saying "If you want to grief, simply wait until the admins aren't looking." --Dagmar d&#39;Surreal 20:38, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's also stupid, the way the bot section is formatted. It's typed like it's some sort of lore or something, and that's just retarded. Codyfun123 00:24, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

NPOV Stance of Text
It seems very pro-griefing to me. It does not list ways to fight it, but it does help give people who may want to know HOW to grief some valuable information. I formally request that this be given a NPOV stance is if fact that is the goal of the wiki, either through deletion of the non-wiki "tutorial" like content that makes up most of the page, or the addition of counter arguments and information on how to combat griefing. I also honestly don't think that you need such a long tutorial-like text to explain in a simple manner that griefing is anything done to piss people off or destroy their work. This reads like a list of game mechanics that can be exploited, rather then a explanation of the word and its meaning. Feverdream –The preceding undated comment was added on 03:22, 24 March 2011. Please sign your posts with


 * I also feel that this is EXTREMELY pro-griefing. Any griefer would consider this a very useful how-to guide. The only content that should be included in this page is the definition of griefing. here's my example:

"griefing (in it's most basic form) is causing grief to another person, such as by kicking down sandcastles. In minecraft, griefing is destroying another persons progress or work (causing them grief), such as destroying your castle with large amounts of TNT or abusing pvp by stealing items." Thats pretty much all you need to know really. If some sicko griefer thinks the information currently on this page should be preserved for some reason, he could make a "tutorial/griefing" page. I would NOT support the making of this page, however. Mybabypetghast 17:20, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Etymology
I don't know where or why the word 'griefer' has it's definition on MC, but someone should know... –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.79.174.123 (Talk) 00:52, 25 July 2010. Please sign your posts with


 * No, the term griefer is usually used to describe a person who causes another one grief, and is usually used in the context of a game. A griefer is usually someone who doesn't hack (but they can be a hacker), but uses some glitch or bug in the software to cause grief. --WedTM 17:33, 22 August 2010 (PDT)


 * It's a relatively new word (Wikipedia) and specifically describes the mindset of people who enjoy kicking over your sandcastles. --JellyfishGreen 10:59, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Anti-griefing
Is it appropriate to list anti-griefing measures here, like tree and fire flags, or password-protected servers?

More philosophically, the design of the game permits behavior X, where for example X=adding blocks; performing X on a structure that is not your own can be either co-op play (when done with agreement) or griefing; how thus could griefing be designed out of the game? --JellyfishGreen 10:59, 5 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Block Protection? In Garry's Mod, most servers run Prop Protection. This stops people from messing with props (objects) that aren't theirs unless they are on the owner's whitelist (allowing for co-op stuff). Could a similar thing be done for Minecraft? When you place a block, it's then defined as yours and can't be removed by others. Being attached to the username, griefers can also then be tracked and easily ousted. Kookas 23:52, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Psychologically attacking Griefers is an effective way of turning them and having them clean up the mess they have made. Grieferventions don't necessarily openly accuse the Griefer of his crimes but portray the want to help the Griefer break from the vicious cycle of addiction. Addamondes

Griefer List
This might be a very valuable list so servers know which accounts to ban from their servers because of the nature of griefers.

–Preceding unsigned comment was added by Kaspar (Talk&#124;Contribs) 21:29, 21 September 2010. Please sign your posts with


 * It probably wouldn't be practical, for it would get very large very quickly. Besides, griefers often change names and IPs so the bans are then useless.Toadbert –The preceding undated comment was added on 21:51, 21 September 2010. Please sign your posts with


 * lets not do that, shall we?--Quatroking - Garble Garble! 22:08, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * we shall! Toadbert –The preceding undated comment was added on 05:20, 22 September 2010. Please sign your posts with

List of griefers? Nope.
I have to agree with not making a list, because as it's been said, griefers switch names, IPs, etc. I used to run a server back in the olden days of Indev/Infdev (a creative server), using...uhh...I forget the name of the program now (where's that old list of Creative Server mods?).

Anyway, griefers were obviously one of the biggest problems my admins and I faced on a daily basis. I mean, we suffered through every type of griefer imaginable. Everything including:


 * 1) Tunnelers (god I hated tunnelers. I'd turn invisible and stalk them, filling in their tunnels as they went)
 * 2) Small time griefers who targeted a random structure in an area where there were little to no players
 * 3) Big time griefers using MCTunnel to do everything from spawning orange male genitalia on the map/inside of buildings which just destroyed them
 * 4) Even bigger griefers using MCTunnel to do GIGANTIC cuboids, often consisting of the pink wool block.
 * 5) "Good guys gone bad". These are the guys who will join a server, earn trust and go up in rank, then suddenly a lot of griefing starts happening. Usually if a server has water/lava commands, and physics on, water/lava flooding will be the first thing to happen.

Not a day went by that I would have to reset the main map (it was a multiworld server and new players were limited to main). Eventually the server mod I used got a big upgrade that allowed us to stealth-ban griefers. One funny occurrence involved me stealth-banning a griefer, then telling him he was stealth-banned and anything he destroys isn't actually being destroyed. He actually spoke and called BS on me. So I told him to bring an alt, and promised him I wouldn't ban him. So he did. Few minutes later he says "SON OF A B*TCH" (censored for the youngin's). We all had a good laugh, and he promised to stop griefing (which he did), and a short time later, he was granted the rank of AdvBuilder. Never had one bad report about him after that.

'''What I'm getting at is that there are many many types of griefing, and it would be near impossible to compile a list of every known griefer account, whether or not we count the days of Creative. Not to mention listing a reason for each.''' Minecraftinerryday 14:16, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The MC Bans Plugin attempts this list for Beta, but at a cost. All servers with MC Bans are a huge risk to Team Avolition and other griefing 'squads'. A big no no. RROD 15:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Bridging the Gap
Griefers may be a species of the genus Noob or perhaps Noob and Griefers should be placed in their own distinct family away from Hominidae. The Camping Noob or Noobus camperus was once considered a subspecies of Noob but the taxonomic tree was expanded as the diversity of Noobs did. As Minecraft grows so will the overall "content" of griefers will and to refer them with their own taxonomic name(based on the strategy they take to kicking over your sandcastle) as a griefer who abuses trust would be called Dolendum fidabuti. Being a Noob may be genetic. When Noobs have a child, or a Nooblet, it will act malicious even without interaction with it's parents. Griefers offspring may be expected to inherent the same traits and behavior of their parents; although it is unheard of for a pair of Griefers to mate or even be capable of doing so. This gives further interest in placing both Noobs and Griefers in their own family instead of just a physiological disorder. –The preceding unsigned comment was added by Addamondes (Talk&#124;Contribs) 15:30, 9 April 2011. Please sign your posts with


 * Do we really need to know the species of griefers? I don't think so... –Preceding unsigned comment was added by Htmlman1 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 23:00, 14 June 2011. Please sign your posts with


 * Obviously a joke, and quite a nice one too. LOL - Asterick6 22:11, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

DoS
Does this section really belong on here under griefing? I know it is disruptive, but it doesn't really fit the concept of griefing, at least IMHO. DreadLindwyrm 13:40, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Section Needed? + Tidied Page
Right, I have done a bit of updating and a bit of cleaning up. Plus, I stumbled upon the section 'Caking'. Is this a joke? Because, it really, really, isn't strong enough griefing type to even make it onto this page.

Honestly....

RROD 15:36, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The Stoning Section
This section is a complete abomination of grammar. Please, whoever wrote this, refrain from editing this wiki and learn more about the English language. It is an absolute mess. (Just kidding, but please review this) Rgamer35 23:13, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
 * They contribute with their knowledge, now you contribute with translation, dictation, grammer and editing skills. --HexZyle 01:48, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * While trying to sound all intelligent, which you did, I think you misspelled 'grammar'. Sorry I have no name. :( 71.162.63.66

Cover more about bukkit plugins
I think this page should cover bukkit plugins like WorldGuard Logblock etc. That can help servers. Jtl999 01:23, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Forming Volcano
Does anybody know why a picture of a volcano is posted next to the "Offensive Structures" section of this page?

76.22.15.178 02:44, 6 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Both the images are under "stoning" but they protrude into the next section because the wiki doesn't create a paragraph break when pictures do that, unlike Microsoft Word. It would be correct to place a paragraph break there, but it wouldn't look right having a random space there. --HexZyle 01:35, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * EDIT: But how does it look now? --HexZyle 01:42, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * EDIT2: oh nevermind, I'm just making it worse. --HexZyle 01:43, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thank you! 76.22.15.178 01:27, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Shameless Self Promotion
ILLIAD, will you please stop editing the "Mods" section to praise yourself. I know for a fact that most of the information you put is false. I edited one section of yours and I removed the other two. –Preceding unsigned comment was added by Ngrfgt (Talk&#124;Contribs) 00:48, 10 January 2012. Please sign your posts with
 * also some jerks in killion detention center would grief when the server reset and it is tershed –Preceding unsigned comment was added by Y (Talk&#124;Contribs) 19:02, 18 February 2012. Please sign your posts with

Suggestion - Complete rewrite of the Griefing page
Honestly, this page is (in its current form) a complete disgrace of an article. Not only are most of the suggested "Griefing Types" impossible to do, but they are sensationalist and incredibly biased. This article does little to inform the community what griefing actually is let alone its capabilities.

So I rewrote the entire article, however because it involved me starting over from scratch, it was blocked by the wiki software. Discussing it with Wiki admin Kizzycocoa, we decided to present my rewrite to the community and see if you felt that my rewrite was good enough to replace the current article.

I like to claim a small bit of expertise in the subject, as a griefer/coder for a well established team as well as a server admin for over a year.

My rewrite can be found at Griefing/editcopy (and of course the current version can be found at Griefing).

- Emylbus 13:22, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Removing the section Tools to make griefing more interesting
I tried to remove the section Tools to make griefing more interesting which tells the player what to use for griefing, it even says that Flint & Steel; My personal favorite, and Lava buckets: Put this on wooden buildings in populated area to cause a huge mess.

When i tried to remove that section, the action was considered harmful. It's not right, a wiki just can't tell other people how to grief. 190.44.91.223 14:02, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


 * There is a difference between being an instruction manual for griefing and providing information about how griefers operate. If we were to operate as if you were correct, we would also need to remove any discussion as to how prevent griefing too. The problem you are suggesting is there is doesn't exist, anyone who has played the game for any amount of time can figure out how to grief (basically just breaking blocks. The purpose of a wiki is not to be biased in any direction but simply provide information. However, this is a very low quality article and I suggest you support my rewrite at the Community Portal. --Emylbus 08:01, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Rewrote Entire Article
After seeing the numerous complains on this Talk page, and the sloppy original article, I have replaced it with my version. I posted here and waited a week for community feedback. Because all was positive, I have changed the article to reflect my changes. - Emylbus 05:52, 18 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Well it sucks we need to chang it back it contains no pica and took out everything important –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.170.19.155 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 03:43, 20 February 2012. Please sign your posts with


 * If you bothered to spell correctly, use punctuation, and explain your argument, we might be inclined to listen to you. -- Orthotope 04:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * As I was saying this page is not detailed it need pictures it needs all the types of griefing like the last one so change it back or make it as detailed as the last one –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.170.19.155 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 18:50, 20 February 2012. Please sign your posts with
 * If you had read the discussion, one of the main problems with the previous version was its bias: it read like a how-to guide for wannabe griefers. As you are requesting a return to that version, I assume you are also a wannabe griefer and incapable of thinking of new ways to cause trouble on your own. Now go play outside. -- Orthotope 02:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't wannabee cause everytime a griefer pops up I get blamed for it so maths change it back show all the types –Preceding unsigned comment was added by Thejumpshots000 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 04:33, 21 February 2012. Please sign your posts with
 * How is reverting the article to Griefing 101 going to fix your problem? Cobalt32 04:57, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Reinserted content
There is no rise of griefing. It's been around long Team Roomba and Escapist Magazine therefore it doesn't belong even if it was correct anyways as it doesn't help clarify anything, it just advertises the group and the magazine. The Minecraft Griefing teams is even worse, its even more blatant promotion and glorifies something which we said we wouldn't, hence why this page doesn't list how to grief. Both these sections are not related to anything in game and are not necessary to explain what griefing is. --Moxxy 23:14, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Good, now I don't even have to argue my point. Quatroking agreed with my removal and reverted your reversal of my edits while I was typing that. --Moxxy 23:17, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * When I was first creating this document, I discussed this topic with Quatroking and we came to the understanding that as long as it is as unbiased as humanly possible, it needs to be and should be discussed in an encyclopedia article. Because of this, I have no clue why Quatro changed his mind. The mention of Team Roomba is important because they were the first to popularize the concept of griefing in youtube videos and Team Avolition is equally as important in minecraft griefing because they are the minecraft griefing group (inspired by Team Roomba) that popularized griefing in minecraft. You would be hard pressed to find any griefing team that can honestly say that Team Avolition's success didn't inspire them to make videos and grief. If the concern is that there is a biasness towards griefing, I would like to point out that the entirety of the rest of the article concerns of anti-griefing techniques and prevention. There is more bias in the rest of the article than in the extremely short paragraphs discussing the origins of organized minecraft griefing. As an encyclopedia, we need to strive to show the entire story, and just because some people do not like the fact that griefers are mentioned, doesn't mean that there should be censorship of a such important part of this topic. Should Adolf Hitler's childhood be removed from the wikipedia article on him in lieu of a how-to-stop-oppressive-dictator guide? This page doesn't list how to grief, it doesn't provide the tools. It merely explains the (brief) history on the subject (which you removed) and largely how to prevent it. If you remove that single section, we would be obligated (as editors striving for no bias) to remove the entirety of the griefing article. Emylbus 01:45, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Griefing teams make up a miniscule fraction of griefers. If Team Roomba or Team Avolition never existed there would be just as much griefing on Minecraft. They are unimportant, period. There is no bias here. --Moxxy 02:09, 12 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Both of these (Emylbus and Moxxy's) are POVs that do not belong on articles. Also, the stance you take on this topic is a bit strong. I don't think anyone can prove whether Team Roomba increased the rates of griefing or whether it had an influence on Minecraft griefing, but it did get mentioned in a third-party source. The teams may or may not be important depending on your POV, but there is no denying that the two teams have accumulated millions of video views. And there actually is a noticeable bias as the article is presented in a specific viewpoint. - Asterick6 03:49, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The history section as it was when it was removed is a bit problematic because of the way it presented the events. However, the purpose of a wiki is to present topics in a neutral and non-POV manner, which this article does not completely accomplish. The articles here do not cater to a specific audience, yet this article seems to be written in a POV for server admins to read, which isn't bad, but isn't neutral. This article isn't made to specifically provide server owners with information on griefers. It's an article for documenting the topic of griefing, and should at least have a form of History or background info section written in a neutral tone. The purpose of a wiki is not to censor information, but to provide it to anyone who wants to access it.

Both of you have some errors in your reasoning, and the main issue is that both of you have a point of view. Yes Moxxy, this topic shouldn't be glorified, but that doesn't mean it can't be documented in a neutral manner. And Emylbus, those points you are bringing up does not give reason to add content either. This reason: "If subject X can't be included, then Subject Y can't be included as well," is an illogical argument to take as the inclusion of one topic has no involvement with the other. Some specific details may be too trivial to be included and only cause more problems.

Here is the problematic text: Griefing is far from a new phenomenon in video games. Frustrated users or mal-intentioned gamers have oftentimes tried to cause grief among other players in multiplayer servers they join. One of the most recognizable groups to do this was Team Roomba in their Team Fortress Griefing series that was picked up and popularized by the Escapist Magazine.

As Moxxy said, the way it is written now is a bit overly promotional in tone. It'll need to be revised a bit. Suggestions and proposals appreciated - Asterick6 03:49, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Update: Since I am attempting to retire and won't be making any more major edits, I'll leave the discussion up to you guys and others. Cya sometime- Asterick6 04:26, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I really don't care about glorification. Anyone who's played an online game before 2007 knows there has always been tons of people who just play games to piss people off. There is no history behind griefing, it's been around forever. --Moxxy 04:45, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd be fine with a rephrasing, it is important to include background information of griefing in an article about the topic of griefing. I don't know how to phrase it any other way to make it seem less "glorifying" teams. It is blatant ignorance to say that "[t]here is no history behind griefing, it's been around forever". Emylbus 05:43, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * There have been trolls/griefers in online games for about as long as there have been online games (e.g., spawn-camping in Quake). However, organized, publicity-seeking teams are a more recent phenomenon. Perhaps something could be said about this without naming any specific teams? -- Orthotope 07:12, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I've added more detailed background context with citations. The griefing mentality and phenomenon from the two articles (in refs) is quite interesting and informative, and gives the neutral perspective from the negative nature of the topic. (I don't support griefing though). You guys should read it as well to gain a better understanding of the phenomenon. - Asterick6 02:34, 18 May 2012 (UTC)