Minecraft Wiki talk:Community portal

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CSS customization
To further stylize the wiki skin to fit the Minecraft theme, might I suggest the following code be added to the Common.css to change the small person avatar by the user links in the upper right hand corner to a pickaxe.

li#pt-userpage { background-image: url(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab82/KRCCFNF/items.png) !important; padding-left: 14px; }

As for non aesthetic changes, might I also recommend adding this code to the common page (it forces extremely long  s to become scrollable boxes as opposed to giant page expanders): pre { overflow: auto; }

Thanks. The Inexistent 04:13, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * These are helpful suggestions. I think we should implement them. (I'm just regular user btw). - Asterick6 04:49, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Edit: but instead of using an external file, it should use a local file such as File:Grid Diamond Pickaxe.png, except that this will need a resize. How would you rescale/resize it to the same size as the external file? - Asterick6 05:01, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * It's possible we'll be using a much more MC-forum-like skin in the near future; that change places a Curse logo next to your username. The pre overflow change, though, I would need to see where it is actually needed. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 16:57, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

'Removed and planned content' Template - idea
I think that placing removed mobs (e.g. beast boy, human) blocks (crying obsidian, gear) or planned ones (pigman, red dragon etc.) is quite strange. It should have its own template, where all unconfirmed, unused and removed content would be placed. What do you think? Xeoxer 16:45, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

We may also sort the content within the template into following groups:

Unused: it's functional in game's files, but not meant to be obtained, thus often causing crashes/ glitches when using it in game.

Removed: it was in a game at some time, but was later completely removed.

Cut: it was planned to appear in future version of the game, but the creator decided not to add it eventually.

Planned: it is officialy confirmed to appear in the future version of the game (can become 'Cut' if the creator changes his mind).

Leaked: it will probably appear in the future version of the game, but no official info has been given and thus it may appear in different form as it was thought or not appear at all.

Xeoxer 17:42, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Opinion - Replacing the Griefing Article
The Griefing article is, honestly, a complete disgrace of an article. Even the Talk page contains nothing but complaints about the page. Not only are most of the suggested "Griefing Types" impossible to do, but they are sensationalist and incredibly biased. This article does little to inform the community what griefing actually is let alone its capabilities.

So I rewrote the entire article, however because it involved me starting over from scratch, it was blocked by the wiki software. Discussing it with Wiki admin Kizzycocoa, we decided to present my rewrite to the community and see if you felt that my rewrite was good enough to replace the current article.

I like to claim a small bit of expertise in the subject, as a griefer/coder for a well established team as well as a server admin for over a year.

My rewrite can be found at Griefing/editcopy (and of course the current version can be found at Griefing).

So what do you guys think?

- Emylbus 13:31, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, the rewrite by Emylbus tells better what griefing is about, and states that some of the things mentioned in the current one is false. When i read the one that is on there now, almost everything there is wrong, and i support replacing it with the one Emylbus wrote. -Undertaker 11 January 2012


 * That article looks much better. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 22:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The rewritten article is far more succinct & flows much better than the current one. Add to that, it is more up-to-date & doesn't include any sensational griefing techniques that are almost never used, like the current one does. - WhoopiGoldberg 10:53, 12 January 2012 (AEST)


 * The new article is better in every way. period.--Yurisho 16:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Great! I know how more about what griefing is. --I like being normal, but who defines normal in this world...? 22:51, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Article has been replaced with my version - Emylbus 05:52, 18 January 2012 (UTC)


 * --Lightsaberboy 01:36, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Help needed
Bad video card drivers! ---

Minecraft was unable to start because it failed to find an accelerated OpenGL mode. This can usually be fixed by updating the video card drivers.

--- BEGIN ERROR REPORT 7fe0271 Generated 1/21/12 7:11 PM

Minecraft: Minecraft 1.1 OS: Windows XP (x86) version 5.1 Java: 1.6.0_30, Sun Microsystems Inc. VM: Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (mixed mode), Sun Microsystems Inc. LWJGL: 2.4.2 [failed to get system properties (java.lang.NullPointerException)]

org.lwjgl.LWJGLException: Pixel format not accelerated at org.lwjgl.opengl.WindowsPeerInfo.nChoosePixelFormat(Native Method) at org.lwjgl.opengl.WindowsPeerInfo.choosePixelFormat(WindowsPeerInfo.java:52) at org.lwjgl.opengl.WindowsDisplay.createWindow(WindowsDisplay.java:185) at org.lwjgl.opengl.Display.createWindow(Display.java:311) at org.lwjgl.opengl.Display.create(Display.java:856) at org.lwjgl.opengl.Display.create(Display.java:784) at org.lwjgl.opengl.Display.create(Display.java:765) at net.minecraft.client.Minecraft.a(SourceFile:230) at net.minecraft.client.Minecraft.run(SourceFile:648) at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source) --- END ERROR REPORT ea53f005 --

Message when I tried to update video driver through Intel

Graphics Driver Product Detected Mobile Intel® 945 Express Chipset Family Current Driver Installed 6.14.10.4814 A customized computer manufacturer driver is installed on your computer. The Intel Driver Update Utility is not able to update the driver. Installing a generic Intel driver instead of the customized computer manufacturer driver may cause technical issues. Contact your computer manufacturer for the latest driver for your computer. Intel Chipset Software Installation Utility (Chipset INF) Product Detected "Intel® 6, 5, 4, 3, 900 Series Chipsets" Current Version Installed 8.0.0.1009 This version is valid.


 * While I don't think this is the best place for trying to find IT support, I'll try my best. What is the exact make and model of your computer. -- Emylbus 12:17, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Adding Gadgets, global account linking, and automatic conversion
Can the revisionjumper and Navigation popups gadgets (as seen here) be added to MC Wiki? This will increase productivity and will allow editors (such as me) to easily see all the revisions and to preview content. This way, we won't have to dig through the view history to find and revert "tampered" or removed content (including vandalism, self-promotion, unsuitable good-faith edits, spam links, etc).

Also, I think it will be easier for editors and admins if there is a global account (linking), so that we won't have to create a new account for every wiki we want to help.

And for the Chinese MC Wiki, can the automatic conversion tool be implemented to help other editors? Here's more info on the project talk page. - Asterick6 02:38, 25 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The gadgets extension is not going to be installed. Add them to your userjs if you want them. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 03:28, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * What about global account linking and automatic conversion? - Asterick6 01:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Curse has a global login system, but it has to be implemented on all the forums before it can be added to the wikis (the Minecraft Forum already uses it).
 * I don't have a problem with the global translate, I don't know if Curse can support it or not though. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 01:35, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok, and I am using vector.css and vector.js, and I just tried installing the scripts by adding the code, but I'm afraid they're not working. How can I install them manually? - Asterick6 02:03, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * You were trying to locally import a script from another website. It should work now. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 02:07, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for fixing it. I realized I needed the URI or something cause only the navigation popups was working since it wasn't installing locally. - Asterick6 02:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * hmm...I don't think it's working properly. I have cleared my cache and reloaded, but the revisionjumper script isn't working. - Asterick6 02:24, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * It seems to be loading for me. But I just get a blank drop down box. Maybe it requires the latest version of mediawiki, or some extensions/other crazy stuff that wikipedia has. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 06:57, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * You're talking about the "← changes since my last edit" link right? The revisionjumper is supposed to show this below the "← Older edits" link, but it's not appearing... The drop-down box you mention is probably the navigation popups and that one is working fine, but revision isn't :/ Can you fix it? It isn't hard right..? Maybe you can try updating MediaWiki...I really want to be able to use this function. It really saves a lot of time. - Asterick6 21:31, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I know very little javascript and that is a very complex script. And updating MediaWiki is just... what? That would take a while to even prepare to update, let alone do that update itself... Plus it may not fix it anyway, because it may be relying on some weird setup in wikipedia. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 22:26, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * It is a very complex system and there are things they can update and stuff the can't there might be

a system in the system and they can't update that so it's probably not going to happen--Lightsaberboy 01:30, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Recent "Community" Articles
Someone with a lot of power might as well change the name of "Recent Community Articles" to "Recent Curse Articles". They are never by the ACTUAL community anymore, they're just by dumb old Curse EVERY SINGLE TIME. This has been angering me more and more over the past few weeks, and I've finally popped. The worst is when it just links to some crappy video or something that looks like one guy spent ten minutes on. But guess what? Because he happens to be part of Curse, it's an instant Digital Diamond and Recent Community Article. My point here is change the name to something less misleading, or pull it together and post some legitimately good articles BY THE COMMUNITY. Thanks for reading this, but I doubt it'll do anything.
 * This is an issue for the Forum, not the wiki. But I will pass on your comments. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  17:59, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow, the Community Spotlight article is awesome! It's actually about what the community has done. I don't know if I influenced this or whatever, but it's exactly the type of thing I was going for in my last post/rant thing above. Well done. Quibbloboy 00:06, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

silverfish block in village?!?!?!?!?
yeah i found silverfish blocks in a village so yeah why in a village?!?!?!

it's just not something you find all the time it's not a bug just a rare find:)--Lightsaberboy 01:24, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Help with replying on Talk pages?
I'm kinda new to talk pages on wikis, so can somebody tell me how to reply to people on talk pages and the "Known Bugs" pages? Yellowpikmin476 02:44, 8 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Just put in a colon a line or two under their text (this adds a space like you can see in this reply) then type whatever you want. --Moxxy 02:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Sign template
I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I just created a sign template which allows you to easily demo sign commands. I created this primarily for the Bukkit guys, because so many mods depend on signs. The syntax is First Line. For example:

Hopefully this helps some people. The sign is sized correctly that it is exactly 15 characters wide, so if you self-police the number of characters you add in the template, then they will all fit correctly on the sign. If you want alternate text colors, you can nest that in the template, like Blue Line:

If you have any questions, please ask! --Nick2253 20:27, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I improved it to be more like the in-game signs, and removed the dependency on a template I think shouldn't be a template. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 17:14, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Template:Blast Resistance Values update
So, for a while, we had a problem with incomplete (and sometimes inaccurate) information on Blast Resistance Values, until Xfs finally came along and posted a bunch of technical info taken directly from Minecraft. Unfortunately, the info he posted was for Beta 1.8, and he hasn't edited since, so now the template is horribly out-of-date. As a result, we really need someone with the technical ability to get this info again and post it on-wiki so the template can be updated. Anyone? 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 08:54, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


 * *bump* This is kinda important, is there anyone that can do it? 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 05:52, 29 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I managed to get MCP working, looks like I can get some of the data Xfs did directly from source without too much difficulty. Give me a day or two to get it all tabulated. -- Orthotope 10:36, 29 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Cool, looking forward to it. =) 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:27, 29 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Not very "out-of date", it turns out. All the values were accurate, just had to add End Portal, End Portal Frame, and Dragon Egg. Looks like blast resistances are changed rarely to never. I'll run a diff once MCP updates for 1.2, but I don't really expect anything to change. -- Orthotope 10:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Cool, it's nice to finally have it updated again (now just don't vanish like Xfs did =D ). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

MC logo at our mainpage
At the our german "editcopy" page someone has inserted the logo into the text. I need some opinions from wiki users, not only admins. thx. -- Oliver Scholz  Wiki Admin 20:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Not bad, it fits. Alt text works nicely when images aren't loaded. Harder to read, though, so I wouldn't use it on other pages. Also, there's a typo in your link on the directors page. -- Orthotope 20:56, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * For anyone reading this, there's already been a little bit of discussion on the Directors page. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 16:59, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

XHTML
Why there is on every page or wrong , although wiki is in HTML 5? IllidanS4 (talk • contribs • [ logs]) 21:03, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Because HTML5 mode in MediaWiki isn't perfect; there are still bugs with it. The issue you cited will appear on any MediaWiki wiki using MediaWiki 1.17 and HTML5 mode, though it may have been fixed in 1.18 or later (I don't know for sure). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 21:52, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, the wiki used XHTML originally. But it changed in an update. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 02:35, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

bug in 1.2.2
I went to the nether with the new update to find a blaze (for a blaze rod) and I found a spawner but nothing spawned, that's when i noticed that there were no ghasts or zombie pig men. if enyone knows why and could tell me that would be great. –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.188.224.93 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 00:32, 3 March 2012. Please sign your posts with
 * Check your difficulty setting, make sure it's not on Peaceful. -- Orthotope 02:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

PvP tutorial started
If anyone wants to help, Ben has started the long-wanted PvP tutorial page. - Asterick6 00:58, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Sandbox
Why, unlike every other wiki, do we not have a Project:Sandbox page for testing edits? This only servers to encourage users to test edits on content pages, which is never a good thing. I see the page existed, but was delete since "users should test in their userspace"... but that isn't at all helpful for anonymous users. Thoughts? --74.105.188.206 17:00, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * An admin deleted it cause he probably forgot about the IPs. I created it. It's located at Minecraft Wiki:Sandbox. - Asterick6 05:53, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Edit:Oh and it seems like ^Project:Sandbox works as well. - Asterick6 05:54, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I've moved the discussion back here as this issue does not only apply or address to me. - Asterick6 01:49, 9 March 2012 (UTC) Minecraft_Wiki_talk:Community_portal#Sandbox:Your argument for keeping the sandbox is for people who aren't logged in, but how does that change anything? IP editors have userpages as well. Plus there's always a link to their userpage in the top-right hand corner, so they're far more likely to find their userpage than the sandbox.

Using the userpages over the sandbox is much better because:
 * 1) You won't have any people overwriting your edits. Testing code is real fun when someone keeps edit conflicting you. :/
 * 2) You have the space to create as many sub-pages as you want, for easier template testing.
 * 3) It's keeps all the testing junk code out of the way of the main wiki space. Where as the sandbox is actually directly in the minecraft wiki space, which just seems awfully wrong. – ultradude25  ( T &#124; C ) at 12:38, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Uh.. most IPs don't know they can make subpages. And maybe they don't want to experiment on their userpage. Is there anything wrong with including a wiki sandbox page? I don't see why there shouldn't be a sandbox page even if user can edit on their userpages. What are you concerned about? - Asterick6 01:39, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd like to hear others' opinions on this as well. And I have a feeling Ultradude is opposing this because it might increase his stress and burden of maintaining the site. Btw, I don't think you're the only admin here, Ultra, so you don't need to do all the work. And in fact, having a universal Sandbox page might decrease the number of edits to different pages since they are all concentrated on that single page. What's the problem? Are you concerned with bandwidth overload or vandalism? - Asterick6 01:49, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * There is little cost to having a universal sandbox, small enough that the benefits easily outweigh the cost. Having the sandbox would also not necessitate that anyone in particular would have to use it; if you're more comfortable testing stuff in your userspace, you could continue to do so.
 * As for finding the sandbox, that's not so much of a problem if we link to it from Doc or something, along the lines of "If you just want to experiment with template markup, please do so in the sandbox or your personal userspace". 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:05, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I just don't see the point of a spamtastic page, when people can use their own userspace. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 16:11, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I kind of agree with Ultradude here, and besides, don't we have the preview function for a reason?--Quatroking -  MCWiki Administrator  17:29, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Well some people want to test some things before editing, and they aren't necessarily fixing any specific article. 74.105.188.206 asked about it cause he wanted to test something, but there was no sandbox available. And it isn't a spamtastic page because only people who know about a wiki sandbox will use it when they want to test things or something. - Asterick6 23:25, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I forget the exact reason, but Show Preview was insufficient for what I wanted to test. As for anonymous users having a namespace: I suppose I wasn't clear enough on the point. Yes, I know we have userpages. The problem is, anonymous users cannot create pages, a restriction that applies even to their own userspace. Thank you Asterick6 for creating a sandbox for testing edits. --74.105.187.80 19:41, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

signing on without being on web
I bought minecraft for my nephew so he could play at home. but now can only play if they have internet which they don't now. So i have it on my laptop so he can play at my house. :(   This is a game/building project that is on my computer.   Is there a way to make it so we don't have to pay for an internet connection to play in single mode?   This really stinks...  feels like i just got ripped off.   If it can be fixed.  I am hooked.  I want to buy another copy for their house again.

Anyway, if there is a work around to make it a usable program being off line, please let me know.

Thank you –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.240.248.252 (Talk) 00:59, 6 March 2012 (UTC). Please sign your posts with
 * As long as Minecraft has been successfully run once on a computer, you can simply use Offline mode to play. To access offline mode, you need to attempt to log in, and when that fails, select "Play Offline". --74.102.139.234 01:14, 6 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The two choices that come up are Login followed with a button saying try again.  and parents under it saying "not downloaded" with a shaded button above that.   To the left are the words can't connect to Minecraft.net     I don't see anything that states "Play Offline"   am i missing something? –Preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.240.248.252 (Talk) 05:46, 6 March 2012 (UTC). Please sign your posts with
 * Hmm you might be using a different launcher. Re-download the official launcher from the minecraft site and try again. If you are offline and you click "Login", it should say Can't connect to minecraft.net with the "Login" button changing to "Play offline." - Asterick6 05:16, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Edit: btw did he download the game files onto his computer yet? If he doesn't have the game files, he can't play with only the launcher. You can copy the game files to his computer if he doesn't have an internet connection. - Asterick6 05:19, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Edit2: Oh yea he needs to have connected at least once to the game servers and also download the game files before it shows the button for offline play. You may need bring his computer over and connect to the site first, or just give him a copy of your launcher if his isn't connected yet. - Asterick6 05:24, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorting order of third party tools and Mods.
Hi Everyone :),

I have been informed by user Orthotope that the standard sort order for a Wiki is alphabetical. Which makes sense for pages with details such as Recipies etc.

However, when it comes to game mod's and tools, alphabetical sorting isn't quite as handy (I feel). When considering mods, I tend to be interested in either the newest updates to existing mods or new mods.

With Alphabetical sorting I need to scroll through the list of mods / tools to see which ones had been most recently updated.

I think mod and tool listings should work like blogs do. Having the latest entries first and then as you scroll through the list arriving at older ones.

Prehaps keeping the alphabetical order and having some kind of "updated" index at the top of the page?

What does everyone think?

--KVKConsultancy 10:26, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * If the table has the "sortable" class, you can sort on any column, meaning you can get a table that is sorted by version number (assuming that works properly; I need to check and may have to make adjustments to a template or two for it to work properly).
 * Also, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but this page is not the place to advertise your tools. ;) 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 18:20, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, it seems the tables on Mods already use the "sortable" class; the sorting isn't perfect, but it should suffice. To sort by the version of Minecraft mods are compatible with, click the little [[File:Sort none.gif]] icon in the "Latest compatible release" column on any of the tables. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 18:31, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks, thats usefull. I'd still put my vote for having the default sort by latest updated.


 * lol xD nah, not advertising, mentioning. Fair enough though not wanting external links here :).  --KVKConsultancy 18:37, 8 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The 'sortable' class seems to no longer work; the sorting icons don't appear. Possibly related to the recent MediaWiki upgrade? -- Orthotope 03:45, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Old information
I'm just a lurker on this wiki but a long time Minecraft player. To me when reading most articles, they seem overwhelmed with recordkeeping of this or that behavior from a long ago patch or update. I'm talking things like "In infdev, this block behaved like ____" or "In beta 0.4, this item spawned much less frequently than it does today." It seems like this stuff is in more articles than it is not.

I think the wiki would be a lot more useful if this history-cruft was deleted, relegated to a historical page about each iterative update, or at the very least, relegated to a history section within each article. When I come here to read about something like how and where diamond ore spawns, I really don't see who would care about its spawn history in a 2 year old Alpha build. I'd be interested in the thoughts of the community on this topic. 71.208.231.180 08:02, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This is exactly why we move the old info to the History section of each article. If there isn't a History section yet, people should create one and move all the old info to that section. Many articles are still cluttered with old info, so this might be a way to fix the problem. - Asterick6 21:38, 10 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I was also quite bothered by this, actually I bought up a similar point a year ago, which sparkled a little discussion.


 * Apparently not much have changed, so for the sake of trying I'm currently writing a little style essay about what I personally feel bad about some articles (and I've illustrated it), and I'm also proposing a simplified and standard layout for block articles with examples using fully rewritten articles. In particular, the whole "history" issue is justified in the style essay. I don't know if anything will be made out of this, that's one sided one point of view and one possible solution.


 * For the time being I'm trying to re-write several articles using my own guidelines so that I can find out issues about my guideline applied to some articles (and there are).


 * I am not the community so I can't go ahead and modify all the pages wild, I need to prove my point and evetually people would accept it, ignore it, reject it or enhance it...--Ha3 11:51, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, we should do something like the TF2 Wiki, where each article has a separate "Update History" section, for example the Sandman article, which notes any changes in bullet form, keeping historical information present but out of the way of current information. — MK (c/t) 12:20, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Many articles now have a History section. I've been creating them and moving all the old information, but there are still a lot of articles without that section, which clutters the article with old info. - Asterick6 22:40, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

This wiki has a problem with Recentism. When new features are released, people add information about the new features, but they don't write about them in a historical perspective, which results in everything being written like a changelog with "As of version xxx, the item now does this" or In version xxx, this was added" or "Prior to version xxx, this happened" cluttering up the article. I think Ha3's style guideline is exactly what we should follow, and here is a real example: Instead of including this in the main section, "Prior to 1.8, dungeons could spawn quite high up, rarely appearing in mountains," it should be moved to the History section. Another is: Stone Brick is a new block type that was implemented in the 1.8 Beta update. Stone Bricks are one of the materials that are used in the Strongholds. The first sentence should be moved to the History section, and the second sentence now becomes starting sentence (which can be improved): '' Stone Brick is a new block type that was implemented in the 1.8 Beta update. Stone Bricks are one of the materials that are used in the Strongholds.''

For more examples on how we can improve the articles, take a look at some of my diffs:, , , , , , , , , , , , , ,.

Also another problem that needs to be addressed is the Trivia section. With most articles, a lot of the "trivia" are useful facts that should be incorporated into the main article, but most people don't know how to make a smooth transition into that piece of information, so they just add them to the bottom of the Trivia section when the fact should be added into the mainspace. This can also be addressed in the style guideline. - Asterick6 22:40, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Hear, hear! I don't think we should, like, write a rule against creating this stuff — we should accept contributions of new information even if the author is lazy about integrating it properly — but it's definitely a good thing to keep non-History current and to integrate information out of Trivia. I've done several edits along those lines myself. So to answer 71.208.231.180: The problems you have noted are problems, and should be fixed when you can see how to do so. That said, I don't think the history of an item should be removed from the item's article itself — often the history can give important context about how it became the way it is, how people perceive it, or why an old mechanism design doesn't work like it used to. —kpreid 12:47, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Btw, this was brought up earlier as well: Minecraft Wiki talk:Community portal. - Asterick6 23:15, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, I posted an opinion a while back on deleting and keeping info. - Asterick6 23:22, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Wiki Idea
I don't know where else to post this so I'm posting it here. When you hit random page you should have a option to have it only be in a specific language rather than any language. This would be very useful. Carstorm 22:12, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Random page is a built in function of MediaWiki. It's not really possible to eliminate the language pages. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  13:49, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Xbox Edition
A question has been posed to me as to how to treat the upcoming Xbox edition on the wiki. Things to consider: Any thoughts, ideas? Release is going to come fairly soon I believe, so now's the time to talk about this stuff. -- Wynthyst  talk  13:47, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ease of access - With the limitations of the Wiki search engine, making sure that people can find the information they are looking for as easy as possible has to be #1 concern.
 * Amount of difference between PC version and Xbox version. - We know it's going to be behind the PC version, but how different are blocks/mobs etc going to be? If there is enough difference, possibly an Xbox version specific infobox, or.. in more drastic cases a full subpage.
 * Isn't a subpage easier? If we implement Xbox between the main pages, it could get out of control. You have to carefully know what you are editing on a page and I rather don't see anything of the Xbox between main pages. So just Xbox/ just like mods works the best, I believe. - CrazyBliep   NL Admin  13:54, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * No, that hinders the search. If you are going to do subpages, it would have to be Wood planks/Xbox, not the other way around. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  14:02, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I personally believe we do not need to bend so much on these pages. while xbox is new, it's essentially an "older" minecraft version, and we do not recognise old versions of blocks generally. To be honest though, I do not know how exactly to handle it.
 * to make a separate iteration for each material, to me, seems laughable. there will be a LOT more pages, it would be a nightmare. not to mention, when do we merge pages back to the main? will we ever merge them back?
 * plus, allowing for this also means we'll likely need to also adapt to iphone/android versions as well. iPhones are vastly more common than xboxes. this could, if all are separate, create 4 pages on the same subject, each of various stages of completion, which is madness.
 * I cannot see any clear solution. I know the xbox community is vast, but separate pages is, in my view, overkill. second only to making a whole new wiki for them.
 * perhaps a small section on each page detailing differences, but that's about all I can think of. I personally think our best option is to simply track the most updated version. --Kizzycocoa 14:30, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Instead of subpages, why not a separate namespace? It would require the wiki host to do a bit of modification, but adding a namespace is nothing terribly difficult. It would retain full search support as namespaces are native to mediawiki... actually, I would be in support of namespaces for prior versions as well. Instead of cluttering up every page with every change since Classic, have the main namespace be about the release version since 1.0.0, and have namespaces for Classic, Indev, Infdev, Alpha, and Beta... plus XBox, and whatever else. It's not really that much more data for the server to store, especially since each page (and every edit) would then be smaller and take up less space. The wiki for Dwarf Fortress uses this kind of model, and it works very well. It's especially kind to our users, who then don't need to look through a bunch of information about versions they're not playing to get to what they want to know. Happy editing! --74.105.187.80 00:13, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * How about we just do the same as we did with the pocket editions - Have the articles centered about the PC edition (the main release) and point out any differences with other versions (if any). Also, we might want to update the templates and put little Win/xbox/android/ios icons in front of parameters when said parameters differ between ports. Basically, don't change too much, keep the wiki easy to the eyes and don't unnecessarily increase the amount of articles.--Quatroking -  MCWiki Administrator  14:45, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * From what I've seen, it looks like they're initially porting the Beta 1.6.6 code, but plan to update it to later versions. In the long term, the PC and Xbox editions will probably be at the same version, so having two pages would be unnecessarily cumbersome. I think adding sections to articles when Xbox behavior differs significantly will be sufficient. -- Orthotope 19:27, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I think they should transfer the PC version code to the Xbox game or just copy the game code of 1.2.4 or what ever update the PC version is at when the Xbox version is out and past it in the Xbox version and see how it goes (this may be in possible but they should be able to put the PC and the Xbox version at the same update)--Lightsaberboy 01:45, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Developer Questions
For Dispenser duplication glitch, would an edited bit of this code solve it. I wrote this and thought that this would work well. Addresses would have to be manually wrote, but I believe it would work.

(Code:

Oak vs. Apple Trees
67.174.105.246 keeps changing all instances of "Oak Tree" with "Apple Tree" before a consensus has been reached in the discussion of the topic. Myself and others have reverted the changes, but I'd like to know how a better way would be to proceed. Thanks! --74.105.187.80 19:31, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Should block variations be shown in crafting grids?
I ask this here because it affects such a large number of pages: In crafting tables, I think it is good to have wood colours and wool colours alternating, and this is now the case on all the crafting tables I am aware of, (the pages for wood and wool, the blocks and items they make, and the tables on pages for materials used alongside them in any recipes.) The idea was however met with some resistance on the crafting page, and the change undone. Regardless of which side is correct, I am sure uniformity is ultimately important, so my question is, do I(/we) change all those pages back to not having the alternation? (I would suggest the same would have to be true for stone brick and sandstone variations as well.) Or do we change the crafting page back to having the colours again? In either case if a clear choice is made I am willing to do the work involved. Cultist O 21:21, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I think there's a problem with using "alternating colours": in most cases, you're not covering all the possible recipes, which is the point of animated .gifs in crafting recipes on the wiki. Initially, we used the animated crafting recipes to show various materials which produced similar results (for instance, a helmet can be crafted with leather, or iron, or diamond...), and in this case all ingredients have to be the same. In the case of sandstone slabs, for instance, we're now showing three possible recipes: 3 sandstone, 3 smooth-sandstone, or 3 hieroglyph-sandstone. In reality, a slab can be made from any combination of sandstone varieties (2-1-0, 1-1-1, 0-3-0,...). A fix for this would be new .gifs with extended delay between changing, but that's a lot of work for minimal result. In my opinion, it would be cheaper and more effective to tag these recipes with a note indicating that "any variety of [wool, sandstone,...] will give the same result", instead of the incomplete method currently being used. Happy editing! --74.105.187.80 00:04, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm the one who reverted your edit. My logic was described better than I could have myself by the previous anonymous user. For now though you are right that uniformity is ultimately importation so I re-added your edit. Hopefully we can just add notes instead so we don't have long gifs that just are an eyesore in the future. For now though it will be fine. --Moxxy 03:41, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the sandstone example is one case where this notably helps, as converting from one type of sandstone to another is somewhat complicated. However when we have lists of crafting recipes for wood all alternating it becomes notably distracting, and as stated above it doesn't even portray that you can use any permutation of colors together.  Possible solution:  Look at what they do for stairs, doors, pressure plates and huge mushrooms in the block template icons.  I think we should make a new icon for wood and one for wool.  Divide both into quarters, to represent the four colors of wood and four of the various colors for wool.  Actually, I made a mock-up you can look at. [[File:Multi-Plank.png]] [[File:Multi-Wool.png]] Pareidolon 03:04, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I approve, part of me twitches at the incomplete list of colours represented by the wool image, but I can concede that that's probably necessary. How did you (/should we) decide which colours to use? Keep in mind that the recipes for dying wool require white wool. What about stone brick? Goodness forbid they make a recipe using huge mushroom blocks, lol. Cultist O 14:05, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I like it. I don't see what the complication with sandstone is, though. As long as the pattern is followed, any type of sandstone can be used in any position, even the type being created. Also, wherever we use these, the 'ingredients' should be checked so they say "any sandstone" or "any planks", because there are some places which list ingredients as "sandstone, smooth sandstone, engraved sandstone". And remember the places which should use the alternating images, such as the recipe for turning logs into planks. Let's do it :) --74.105.176.33 18:19, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your support! First, you have a good point that sandstone varieties can be made out of any type of sandstone.  About the colors, I'm not sure myself if this is the best way to represent it, but the goal is to show multiple colors in a single still image.  I chose those four colors of wool mainly because they're light enough to really look like wool without texture burn-out, but since you asked for it (sort of) I thought I'd try doing an image of the same style with all the colors of wool.  [[File:Omni-Wool.png]] Pareidolon 02:18, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Wow, that looks better than I expected it to, I guess the only real question left is which wool image to implement, I am sure that people will find anything we do lacking, but I personally prefer the all colours one. What would the sandstone and stone brick ones look like? (I feel bad asking you to do all the picture work, but I definitely don't know how.)  Cultist O 13:51, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, this is just splicing together small images, nothing fancy. I could try to either blend or emphasize the edges to make it more professional.  The main problem with making a sandstone image like that is that the detail is small and difficult to distinguish.  This is my first idea.  [[File:Multi-Sandstone.png]] [[File:Multi-Sandstone_Contrast.png]] Pareidolon 06:11, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
 * So, what needs to happen to get this done? I haven't taken the time to figure out the inner workings of the crafting grid template. --timrem 07:29, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Nothing needs to happen really (aside from uploading the images to the correct spot, and giving them transparency), but I think this is a bad idea. If I was new to the game, I'd think that muli-coloured wool was some special block in the game, so I think this will just cause far more confusion.
 * A possible solution is to use APNG animations for minor details like this. They're supported by Firefox, and I think Chrome recently started supporting them (before you had to use an addon). This could also be used for enchanted items so the purple glow is animated, although I don't know how to actually get that into an animated image easily. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 22:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Writing styles
Is it just me or do you guys think that there are weird writing styles here? Is it a difference between BE and AE? I mean I noticed that there are some instances of "whilst", and many sentences use the weird construction with "as" being the same meaning as "because" or "since" Ex: This does this as [reason]. Shouldn't it be because or since [reason]? "As" isn't a conjunction is it? Also, why are people using "thus"? That's just awkward. - Asterick6 06:12, 24 March 2012 (UTC)


 * As can certainly be used in that way, as it can in fact be a conjunction both synonymous with "while" or "when"(I called my friend as I walked to the store.) with "because" or "since", as in my first sentence. Google search "as definition" if you don't believe me. As to your second concern, you think the entire word "thus" is awkward? What do you propose to use instead? Are therefore and hence just as awkward? Cultist O 07:53, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * ^ LOL - Asterick6 20:26, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Bug accessing Community Portal
I just received the following when i tried accessing the Community Portal (hidden so not to disturb the page)

onCommunicationException('Connection time...', 110)
 * 2) 1 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(1440): Predis\Connection->redisStreamInitializer(Object(Predis\ConnectionParameters))
 * 3) 2 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(1594): Predis\Connection->connect
 * 4) 3 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(1545): Predis\Connection->getSocket
 * 5) 4 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(1519): Predis\Connection->writeBytes('*2??$3??GET??$7...')
 * 6) 5 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(1679): Predis\Connection->writeCommand(Object(Predis\Commands\Get))
 * 7) 6 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(198): Predis\ConnectionCluster->executeCommand(Object(Predis\Commands\Get))
 * 8) 7 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/extensions/Curse/CurseExtension.body.php(52): Predis\Client->__call('get', Array)
 * 9) 8 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/extensions/Curse/CurseExtension.body.php(52): Predis\Client->get('footkey')
 * 10) 9 [internal function]: curseDisplayFootbar(Object(SkinVector), 'bottomScripts(Object(OutputPage))
 * 15) 14 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/includes/OutputPage.php(1864): SkinTemplate->outputPage(Object(OutputPage))
 * 16) 15 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/includes/Wiki.php(396): OutputPage->output
 * 17) 16 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/includes/Wiki.php(641): MediaWiki->finalCleanup
 * 18) 17 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/includes/Wiki.php(547): MediaWiki->main
 * 19) 18 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/index.php(57): MediaWiki->run
 * 20) 19 {main}

-->
 * 1) 0 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(1464): Predis\Connection->onCommunicationException('Connection time...', 110)
 * 2) 1 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(1440): Predis\Connection->redisStreamInitializer(Object(Predis\ConnectionParameters))
 * 3) 2 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(1594): Predis\Connection->connect
 * 4) 3 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(1545): Predis\Connection->getSocket
 * 5) 4 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(1519): Predis\Connection->writeBytes('*2??$3??GET??$7...')
 * 6) 5 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(1679): Predis\Connection->writeCommand(Object(Predis\Commands\Get))
 * 7) 6 /usr/lib/php/Predis.php(198): Predis\ConnectionCluster->executeCommand(Object(Predis\Commands\Get))
 * 8) 7 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/extensions/Curse/CurseExtension.body.php(52): Predis\Client->__call('get', Array)
 * 9) 8 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/extensions/Curse/CurseExtension.body.php(52): Predis\Client->get('footkey')
 * 10) 9 [internal function]: curseDisplayFootbar(Object(SkinVector), 'bottomScripts(Object(OutputPage))
 * 15) 14 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/includes/OutputPage.php(1864): SkinTemplate->outputPage(Object(OutputPage))
 * 16) 15 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/includes/Wiki.php(396): OutputPage->output
 * 17) 16 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/includes/Wiki.php(641): MediaWiki->finalCleanup
 * 18) 17 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/includes/Wiki.php(547): MediaWiki->main
 * 19) 18 /home/minecraftwiki/public_html/index.php(57): MediaWiki->run
 * 20) 19 {main}

Not sure if it's a temporary issue or something which needs looking into, but... there you go. --74.105.187.80 06:51, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Mob hitboxes/models.
I've changed the "wolf" size to 1x1x1 because their hitbox is 1x1x1 block. However, on most other mob pages (such as cow), their size is defined by the model size. What should we do? Specify all hitboxes, or model sizes?

Unrelated, I think the hitbox/model size should be put in the Mob template. C ali nou - talk × contribs » 21:52, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Block hardness on all pages
I think the time to mine should be on all pages about blocks. HotdogPi Come to my page! 15:46, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Cake farm
Sorry about adding onto this post I just couldn't work out how to do a new topic. Guys can you check out my new page about Cake Farming? I don't mean to bother you it's just I hope you will find it useful. Peace out.

Broken icons
When viewing an article about a block or item, the icons on the list at the bottom of the page are all broken and/or mismatched. Can someone fix this? Cobalt32 01:56, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * No it's not. Clear your cache. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 02:28, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Clarification on the "Request for Comment" process

 * Did you read the blue box over the requests for comment section? Request for comment implies at least a discussion and then the link to it. – Scaler (t) 21:01, 11 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much Scaler! :) It seems I must have missed that big blue box. I see what happened, the blue box appears to belong to the section above. I will adjust the page accordingly.

That solves that KVKConsultancy 00:16, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Capitalization
I've noticed several instances where words like Apple and Cow are capitalized in the middle of a sentence in the middle of an article. Sometimes they are the subject of an article, sometimes not. It's often done inconsistently (going from Apple to apple). I would say just make everything lowercase except at the start of the sentence, but is there a reason to do this, such as to indicate it is the Minecraft item and not a real-world item? Does it matter whether it's a real word or a Minecraft-only word (like mooshroom)? Pareidolon 15:57, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I noticed it too. I would just make it all (including "mooshroom") lowercase but at the same time I would like to have a feature in the markup to indicate that a word is an actual in-game item (an template?) that could change the style of the word and maybe even link to the item's article (or even show a little icon or whatever). - 193.84.186.81 20:33, 12 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The style rule I have followed is any reference to an in-game item is capitalized exactly as the in-game text; all other nouns follow standard English capitalization. I've seen plenty of inconsistent text but very little explicit disagreement with this style. —kpreid 20:52, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of capitalization, it is used inconsistently throughout this wiki in article sections' names. I would suggest following the Wikipedia Manual of Style (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(capital_letters)#Section_headings), which suggests sentence-style capitalization, but I didn't go ahead and fix anything yet as title-style seems to be prevalent on this site so I wanted to check with what others think. Or do you guys have your own manual of style? - 193.84.186.81 21:01, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Left Side-Bar Navigation
Unlike MANY (most) wiki's I've seen, the Minecraft Wiki does a pretty good job of staying clean and relevant. Unfortunately, one thing that it does have in common with other, less desirable, wikis, is an impotent left side-bar navigation.

Currently, if I am looking for some specific piece of information, say, on Biomes, just as an example, I have to do a search for it, or just know the page, and manually type it in. Even worse, if I don't really know what I'm looking for and I just want some help getting started, I'm left sort of floundering, trying to figure out where to go.

I understand that if you go to the main page, there are a few boxes giving some potential options or general pointers, but I don't see a break-down of what I have available to me, which is a shame because it is actually quite substantial, once you get immersed in the site. As I've been exploring the wiki, I have found loads of information, by accident, that I have found very insightful. Many of those pages, I didn't even know existed; I just happened upon them. I would have actively pursued a vast majority of the information I got from those pages, had I known the information was there, had I seen them in a table of contents or site map. I don't believe this site is being fully utilized simply because many good, useful pages are just being missed due to an absence of visible organization.

While I've been around the block enough times to find my way to what I am looking for, eventually, and I often stumble across those hidden gems simply because I have made a hobby out of link-surfing wikis, I find it bothersome and cumbersome, when I am seeking out some specific bit of data, to have to "hunt" for something that could very easily be categorized for my browsing pleasure. Someone who is not a happy-wiki-link-surfer might not benefit from the vast resources available to them, simply due to ignorance.The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Page is a great example of not only how to organize a wiki, but how also to make getting around the wiki, and knowing what there is to get into, ridiculously user-friendly. Just my thoughts to make this wiki better. -- Bryan 17:17, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Rather than just saying "Houston! We have a problem!" and pointing us to a wiki that has a far different style than MCW, give us some clear suggestions. You titled this section "Left-Sidebar navigation" but you don't really address the sidebar navigation at all, what you feel it lacks, suggestions for additions, etc. I have no problem changing/adjusting the left side navigation to make it more user friendly, but I need to know what you wish to have linked there. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  03:10, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It sound like he is suggesting a list of general useful pages in the sidebar under the Main page - Help area, such as the list of Elder Scrolls game titles on the left of the UESP wiki. Pages that might (but might not) fit what I think he would wish for are Minecraft, Blocks, and Items. Verhalthur (talk)(contribs) 16:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)


 * So basically the things in the "Popular and Useful Pages" section of the main page? That seems pretty useful, maybe it could even replace the section on the main page, then we could use the new found space for something else. – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 16:38, 22 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok I've added it, thanks for the suggestion! – ultradude25 ( T &#124; C ) at 20:25, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Bedrock
Just a small question, could it be possible that the layer of bedrock at the bottom of the overworld (and at the top of the nether) could represent the Mohorovičić discontinuity (Moho), the boundary of the crust and upper mantle? This would also apply to the top of the Nether, as the Nether seems to resemble the upper mantle. Shakinglord 12:03, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe as a general concept. The "stone" below the soil is what would normally be called bedrock.  The Moho however is 8 to 32 kilometers underground, while the bedrock layer in Minecraft is only 64 meters below.  Also, the Nether has a bedrock layer on the bottom as well.  I think bedrock is more functional than it is symbolic. Pareidolon 22:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Minecraft 1.3 Bug!
people need to seriously look into what they are doing to minecraft, in the next update 1.3 they are planning to make singleplayer a local multiplayer bace! now not only doest this ruin the name singleplayer, but it also makes it so you are unable to play minecraft without being connected to the internet. in the 12w18a pre-release we can see this happen. i have tried to play my single player worlds while not being connected to the internet but it will not let me log in! this is an out rage and needs to be dealt and handeled with before the update release!


 * It will be dealt with before the release, that's the point of the snapshots. The snapshot is essentially a week's worth of work and they're undertaking a huge task by doing this - bugs like these are to be expected and will be ironed out before release. Login is unrelated to the change, you will be able to play offline as before. In 1.3, single player will run on a local server, i.e. your computer - you will not need to connect to the internet to do this. It doesn't "ruin the name singleplayer" in the slightest... single player means you're playing on your own... --Tomlough 14:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Multiplayer Question
On minecraft for xbox, my friend has a world. can i get on the world even if he's not online?

New blocks for grids?
For this page, I was wondering if there should be more blocks added, such as Crying Obsidian? alexkill51 - 20 May 2012

Pchart4mw
As of today the extension Pchart4mw has been installed, providing us an extension capable of producing line-, bar-, pie-, radar-, scatter- and bubble charts. As an example of it's usage, I've converted a huge table on the page on Experience, saving an entire kilobyte of text in the process (easier reading, mobile users!) and making it look a lot more shiny. Have fun! --Quatroking -  MCWiki Administrator  16:58, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Typo in 1.2.5 pirate speak~!
It says "Sail wit' yet crew" on the multiplayer instead of "Sail wit' yer crew". Is it a typo or was it intended to be that way?