Minecraft Wiki talk:Community portal



Template:Unreleased feature
Unreleased feature leaves a bad taste. To me, it looks like its trying to circumvent article notability. If people want to create articles for unreleased features, why not use MCW:Sandbox? I don't like the idea of articles under redirect, both because its bad for usability, and because it brings back the exact same problem the original articles had which was a lack of proper article content. Warden is an example of that template's usage.

Alternatively, if people you want to keep using Unreleased feature, let make a proposal to amend the style guide to allow those articles to exist and remove the redirect. For instance, I'd be a lot more likely to support such an article if you had a clear expiration date before an unreleased feature gets downgraded to a section on mentioned features, along with some notability for which "unreleased features" are notable enough for their own article. We can discuss that under this topic if anyone has clear ideas.

From my point of view, Unreleased feature in its current form violates the style guide, so we need to either amend the style guide to state when its allowed or remove the usages. KnightMiner (t/c) 06:11, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
 * deleting the template outright. As for the proposal to amend the style guide to accept unreleased feature - there is too little information. What info is there on Warden that warrants its own page? With the exception of Warden, there are too little details on Caves & Cliffs to warrant an entire page. I would like unreleased feature to be in the redr template.Humiebeetalk contribs 23:28, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Deleting it - If we deleted this template, use of redr won't be enough, and we won't be able to create these pages, as it would be violating much more, than it does now. We would have to say to people who do so "sorry, but you are directly violating our style guide". --TreeIsLife (talk) 07:33, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * That is exactly the point. If it is violating the style guide, why does adding a template make it not in violation? If you think using that template should be allowed, the style guide should be amended to say "articles about unreleased features are fine as long as they are marked with Unreleased feature and hidden by a redirect".
 * As it stands, the current wording of the style guide means if someone wants to create an article for an unreleased feature, you tell them it violates the style guide. You dislike telling people that? Make a proposal or agree with one to change the style guide. We could change the style guide to describe when unreleased articles are allowed, instead of circumventing it with secret articles. KnightMiner (t/c) 02:29, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I am oppose of this due it will just start a domino effect. You will change this, style guide will probably change too, and based on how those changes will be (i saw more strict idea of style guide), it may even mean page like Warden won't exist, even when announced, but unreleased. Also, even when not in style guide, it became as a "hidden point", and if this template would be deleted, it would probably mean that point won't apply any longer.--TreeIsLife (talk) 07:32, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * So let me get this straight, you think we should leave this template (which violates the style guide) alone because you think the style guide is too strict, and yet do not want to change the style guide to be less strict to make the template be allowed? KnightMiner (t/c) 17:08, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes. But probably when I see how other people are voting, i will probably have to accept its removation, and also style guide changes--TreeIsLife (talk) 08:33, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * deletion, and making the style guide more strict; these pages might just as well first be made in the userspace, rather than under the redirect. We have a bunch of stuff in the style guide that goes ignored, including the "page titles should be singular", which was brought up as adiscussion point on discord several times too. I'm getting tired of it just being me who follows the style guide more directly. Dhranios (talk) (Join the wiki videos project!) 09:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * deletion of the template. TheGreatSpring (talk | contribs) (Tagalog translation) 11:59, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * How exactly does this template violate the style guide? Fadyblok240 (talk) 01:50, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The template is to be added to articles that are disallowed under the style guide, using the logic that since the article has a redirect making it hard to get to its okay. Its still an article, it is still about unreleased features, its just that most people won't find it. So maybe its better to say the template itself is not a violation, but using the template for its indented use is a violation. KnightMiner (t/c) 02:29, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * deletion: We already have various templates for marking new and changed behavior and items of upcoming versions, for example Drowned's upcoming switch from dropping gold to dropping copper.  Currently the changing drops for Drowned are simply noted within their page, and the Skulk Sensor has a page, but the Warden links to a paragraph in the upcoming version page.  I see no reason we shouldn't simply have properly-hatted articles (with whatever information is available) for items and/or mobs that have been confirmed as "upcoming".  --MentalMouse42 (talk) 12:04, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Navigation on FandomDesktop (and perhaps sidebar on Hydra)
As you may know, FandomDesktop will use the same navigation, as [ Oasis], therefore we would have to change this one. Unfortunately, this type of navigation would mean the uncollapsed "navigation" would be gone, and we would have to rework it entirely. What are your opinions on this?

Note: It is possible to add 3 layers into navigation --TreeIsLife (talk) 13:42, 16 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I propose an idea to do this. We can just update MediaWiki:Wiki-navigation to make 4 custom sections. Note that I don't know if the "Explore" category can have many customizations like the others, but it can be modified I think, so I propose that we should update to this only after UCX (FandomDesktop) releases:
 * {| class="wikitable"

! colspan="2" | Wiki ! colspan="2" | Minecraft ! colspan="2" | Dungeons ! Help ! Explore
 * Wiki rules
 * Gameplay
 * Gameplay
 * How to help
 * Recent changes
 * Minecraft style guide
 * Blocks
 * Locations
 * Help with contents
 * Random page
 * Dungeons style guide
 * Items
 * Heads-up display
 * Standardized views
 * What links here
 * Talk page guidelines
 * Entities
 * Daily Trials
 * Quick reference page
 * Special pages
 * Video policy
 * Mobs
 * Ancient Hunts
 * Schematics
 * Upload a file
 * Community portal
 * Mechanics
 * Difficulties
 * Official sources
 * Missing pages
 * Admin noticeboard
 * Crafting
 * Mobs
 * Projects
 * Smelting
 * Gear
 * Pending tasks
 * Brewing
 * Weapons
 * Patroller requests
 * Enchanting
 * Armor
 * Wiki Discord
 * Trading
 * Artifacts
 * Edit testing page
 * Redstone
 * Enchanting
 * Components
 * Cosmetics
 * Circuits
 * Drops
 * Tutorials
 * Arcade
 * Achievements
 * Cards
 * Advancements
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Mobs
 * Projects
 * Smelting
 * Gear
 * Pending tasks
 * Brewing
 * Weapons
 * Patroller requests
 * Enchanting
 * Armor
 * Wiki Discord
 * Trading
 * Artifacts
 * Edit testing page
 * Redstone
 * Enchanting
 * Components
 * Cosmetics
 * Circuits
 * Drops
 * Tutorials
 * Arcade
 * Achievements
 * Cards
 * Advancements
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Armor
 * Wiki Discord
 * Trading
 * Artifacts
 * Edit testing page
 * Redstone
 * Enchanting
 * Components
 * Cosmetics
 * Circuits
 * Drops
 * Tutorials
 * Arcade
 * Achievements
 * Cards
 * Advancements
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Enchanting
 * Components
 * Cosmetics
 * Circuits
 * Drops
 * Tutorials
 * Arcade
 * Achievements
 * Cards
 * Advancements
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Circuits
 * Drops
 * Tutorials
 * Arcade
 * Achievements
 * Cards
 * Advancements
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Tutorials
 * Arcade
 * Achievements
 * Cards
 * Advancements
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Achievements
 * Cards
 * Advancements
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Achievements
 * Cards
 * Advancements
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Advancements
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Advancements
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * }
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
 * What do you think of this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Wiki navigation request (moved from admin noticeboard)
Currently, it looks like:
 * Minecraft
 * Minecraft Earth
 * Minecraft Dungeons

This should be changed to:
 * Minecraft
 * Minecraft Dungeons
 * Minecraft Dungeons Arcade

Thank you. Humiebeetalk contribs 21:53, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd do these changes to MediaWiki:Sidebar:


 * Games
 * Minecraft|Minecraft
 * Minecraft Dungeons|Minecraft Dungeons
 * MCD:Minecraft Dungeons Arcade|Minecraft Dungeons Arcade
 * Minecraft: Story Mode|Minecraft: Story Mode
 * Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two|Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two
 * Minecraft Earth|Minecraft Earth
 * Because all of those games are official (even Story Mode is official in its way), and people might be interested in seeing them.
 * If we someday use MediaWiki:Wiki-navigation, I'd use on that page:


 * Minecraft (games)|Games
 * Minecraft|Minecraft
 * Java Edition|Java Edition
 * Bedrock Edition|Bedrock Edition
 * Education Edition|Education Edition
 * Minecraft Dungeons|Minecraft Dungeons
 * MCD:Minecraft Dungeons Arcade|Minecraft Dungeons Arcade
 * Minecraft: Story Mode|Minecraft: Story Mode
 * Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two|Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two
 * Minecraft Earth|Minecraft Earth
 * To make it more useful on FandomDesktop. Both options work anyway. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 00:31, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The first option is fine but in the second option, if you are going to put discontinued games, you have to put discontinued versions OR remove the discontinued games (3DS and Console) (like the original proposal I made). Humiebeetalk contribs 21:27, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should only have 3 links to 3 current games. After all, our wiki has content for all those games and readers may be interested. Sure, they are discontinued, but I wouldn't compare them to 3DS or Legacy Console, since games like Story Mode or Earth are their own games unlike 3DS and Legacy, which are just ports of regular Minecraft to other devices. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 23:42, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * If so, I prefer the 1st option because editions are NOT games. Humiebeetalk contribs 16:40, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
 * While I agree that editions aren't games, people searches them and they are enoughly relevant to be included there. That's a reason of why I didn't include editions like Legacy, Pi or 3DS. Also, note that Wiki-navigation only affects FandomDesktop, and on Hydra Sidebar takes its place. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 16:50, 25 June 2021 (UTC) (Edit: I moved Earth down since it was discontinued.)
 * Change the sidebar:
 * Games*
 * Minecraft
 * Minecraft Dungeons
 * Minecraft Dungeons Arcade
 * Minecraft Earth
 * Discontinued games*
 * Minecraft: Story Mode
 * Minecraft: Story Mode Season 2
 * To this:
 * Games*
 * Minecraft
 * Minecraft Dungeons
 * Minecraft Dungeons Arcade
 * Discontinued games*
 * Minecraft: Story Mode
 * Minecraft: Story Mode Season 2
 * Minecraft Earth
 * 111.88.70.70 13:26, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
 * this though MCE should be moved above MC: Story Mode. Humiebeetalk contribs 14:33, 2 July 2021 (UTC)


 * For MediaWiki:Wiki-navigation I would suggest something like this:

* #|Games ** Minecraft *** Java Edition *** Bedrock Edition *** Education Edition ** Minecraft Dungeons ** MCD:Minecraft Dungeons Arcade|Minecraft Dungeons Arcade ** #|Discontinued games *** Minecraft Earth *** Minecraft: Story Mode *** Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two
 * Games
 * Minecraft
 * Java Edition
 * Bedrock Edition
 * Education Edition
 * Minecraft Dungeons
 * Minecraft Dungeons Arcade
 * Discontinued games
 * Minecraft Earth
 * Minecraft: Story Mode
 * Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two
 * }
 * --MarkusRost (talk) 15:39, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know, the reason of why I didn't add s discontinued games section was to make simpler for users to go to the pages. We already say that they are discontinued on both main page and their own pages, so for me it's kinda redundant. Also, I would make "Games" go to a disambiguation page or something like that, such a "Minecraft (games)" or "Minecraft (franchise)" page or something like that. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 16:20, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
 * That's actually not possible as clicking on "Games" collapses and uncollapses the games themselves. Humiebeetalk contribs 14:46, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * This one includes different editions unlike the IP above. I don't think editions should be in "Games". Also, Arcade should be a subbullet of MCD and Story Mode Season 2 should be a sub-bullet of Story Mode. Humiebeetalk contribs 17:41, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
 * My overall request:
 * My overall request:

* #|Games ** Minecraft *** Java Edition *** Bedrock Edition *** Education Edition ** Minecraft Dungeons *** MCD:Minecraft Dungeons Arcade|Minecraft Dungeons Arcade ** #|Discontinued games *** Minecraft Earth *** Minecraft: Story Mode **** Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two
 * Games
 * Minecraft
 * Java Edition
 * Bedrock Edition
 * Education Edition
 * Minecraft Dungeons
 * Minecraft Dungeons Arcade
 * Discontinued games
 * Minecraft: Story Mode
 * Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two
 * }
 * Humiebeetalk contribs 17:45, 2 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not a big fan on the subsections for Story Mode and Dungeons. The subsections include only a single link which kinda defeats the point of of a subsection, specially as we aren't at the limit of links in the higher section. MarkusRost (talk) 17:15, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I really don't like discontinued games either, they recieve too little traction, MCE is inaccessable and MC Story Mode is inaccessable if you did not download it before its discontinuation. I'm fine with no sub-bullets ifi there is only going to be 3 games (MC, MCD, and MCD: Arcade). I'm still not comfortable with editions as they are not games. (So I basically support my original proposal
 * I'm not a big fan on the subsections for Story Mode and Dungeons. The subsections include only a single link which kinda defeats the point of of a subsection, specially as we aren't at the limit of links in the higher section. MarkusRost (talk) 17:15, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I really don't like discontinued games either, they recieve too little traction, MCE is inaccessable and MC Story Mode is inaccessable if you did not download it before its discontinuation. I'm fine with no sub-bullets ifi there is only going to be 3 games (MC, MCD, and MCD: Arcade). I'm still not comfortable with editions as they are not games. (So I basically support my original proposal

* #|Games ** Minecraft ** Minecraft Dungeons ** MCD:Minecraft Dungeons Arcade|Minecraft Dungeons Arcade
 * Games
 * Minecraft
 * Minecraft Dungeons Arcade
 * }
 * Humiebeetalk contribs 14:46, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
 * }
 * Humiebeetalk contribs 14:46, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

To continue, I've made some significant changes to the navigation (for Fandom Desktop) and not just for the games section, feel free to add or suggest more things about it:
 * Minecraft Wiki
 * Special:RecentChanges|Recent changes
 * MCW:Community portal|Community portal
 * MCW:Admin noticeboard|Admin noticeboard
 * MCW:Projects|Projects
 * MCW:Wiki rules|Rules and guides
 * MCW:Wiki rules/Video policy|Video policy
 * MCW:Talk page guidelines|Talk page guidelines
 * MCW:Style guide|Style guide
 * MCW:Standardized views|Standardized views
 * Help:Contents|Help
 * https://help.fandom.com/wiki/|Fandom help
 * Help:Official sources|Official sources
 * MCW:How to help|How to help
 * #|More
 * MCW:Sandbox|Sandbox
 * MCW:Directors|Directors page
 * MCW:Discord|Wiki Discord


 * #|Games
 * Minecraft
 * Java Edition
 * Bedrock Edition
 * Education Edition
 * Minecraft China
 * Minecraft Dungeons
 * Minecraft Dungeons Arcade
 * Minecraft Earth
 * Minecraft: Story Mode
 * Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two


 * #|Useful pages
 * Minecraft
 * Item|Items
 * Block|Blocks
 * Mob|Mobs
 * Biome|Biomes
 * Crafting
 * Trading
 * Brewing
 * Redstone circuits
 * Controls
 * Tutorials
 * Minecraft Dungeons
 * MCD:Item|Items
 * MCD:Enchantment|Enchantments
 * MCD:Mob|Mobs
 * MCD:Location|Locations
 * MCD:Daily Trial|Daily Trials
 * MCD:Ancient Hunts|Ancient Hunts
 * MCD:Controls|Controls
 * MCD:Tutorials|Tutorials
 * Minecraft Earth
 * MCE:Mob|Mobs
 * MCE:Tappable|Tappables
 * MCE:Journal|Journal
 * MCE:Buildplate|Buildplates
 * MCE:Challenges|Challenges
 * MCE:Seasons|Seasons
 * #|Technical pages
 * Add-on|Add-ons
 * Data pack|Data packs
 * Resource pack|Resource packs
 * Server|Servers
 * Bedrock Dedicated Server|Bedrock Dedicated Servers
 * Development resources
 * Official pages

Quick look: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/827172532917764161/865280880628465684/Navigation.gif – ItsPlantseed ⟨₰|₢⟩ 20:58, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * #|Minecraft links
 * https://minecraft.net/|Website
 * https://help.minecraft.net/|Support
 * https://feedback.minecraft.net|Feedback
 * https://bugs.mojang.com/|Bug tracker
 * https://discord.gg/minecraft|Discord
 * https://twitter.com/Minecraft|Twitter
 * #|Other media
 * https://www.facebook.com/minecraft|Facebook
 * https://instagram.com/minecraft|Instagram
 * https://www.youtube.com/minecraft|YouTube
 * https://www.twitch.tv/minecraft|Twitch
 * I really think that Realms and Commands should be moved to technical. I also think that a discontinued games sub-section should be added to separate old games and new, active games. Humiebeetalk contribs 21:06, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I've updated the menus to show less items, since 4th layer menu doesn't really supported. – ItsPlantseed ⟨₰|₢⟩ 17:19, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Forgot to say, . Also, how would these apply to the hydra sidebar? (MediaWiki:Sidebar) Humiebeetalk contribs 21:16, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * As MediaWiki:Wiki-navigation doesn't affect the current hydra sidebar, I don't think it's possible to add multi-layered section with the sidebar. So hydra would almost likely to be unchanged. – ItsPlantseed ⟨₰|₢⟩ 21:28, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd use something like this actually:


 * Help:Contents|Wiki contents
 * MCW:Wiki rules|Wiki rules
 * MCW:Wiki rules/Video policy|Video policy
 * MCW:Style guide|Style guide
 * MCW:Talk page guidelines|Talk page guidelines
 * MCW:Standardized views|Standardized views
 * Special:RecentChanges|Recent changes
 * MCW:Community portal|Community portal
 * MCW:Admin noticeboard|Admin noticeboard
 * MCW:Patroller requests|Patroller requests
 * MCW:Projects|Projects
 * MCW:Sandbox|Sandbox
 * MCW:How to help|How to help
 * Community:Help:Contents|Community central
 * https://help.fandom.com/wiki/|Gamepedia help
 * Help:Schematic|Schematics
 * MCW:Templates|Templates
 * MCW:Directors|Directors page
 * #|Media
 * MCW:Discord|Wiki Discord
 * https://twitter.com/MinecraftWikiEN |Wiki Twitter
 * https://youtube.com/channel/UCpGnHzJ6fquO_8vSmiA32yg|Wiki Youtube


 * #|Games
 * Minecraft
 * Java Edition
 * Bedrock Edition
 * Education Edition
 * Minecraft China
 * Minecraft Dungeons
 * MCD:Minecraft Dungeons Arcade|Minecraft Dungeons Arcade
 * Minecraft Earth
 * Minecraft: Story Mode
 * Minecraft: Story Mode - Season Two


 * Special:RandomRootpage|Useful pages
 * Minecraft
 * Item|Items
 * Block|Blocks
 * Mob|Mobs
 * Biome|Biomes
 * Gameplay
 * Achievement|Achievements
 * Advancement|Advancements
 * Singleplayer
 * Multiplayer
 * Realms
 * Difficulty|Difficulties
 * Command|Commands
 * Controls
 * Mechanics
 * Fishing
 * Trading
 * Crafting
 * Smelting
 * Brewing
 * Enchanting
 * Redstone circuits
 * #|Technical
 * Add-on|Add-ons
 * Data pack|Data packs
 * Resource pack|Resource packs
 * Server|Servers
 * Bedrock Dedicated Server|Bedrock Dedicated Servers
 * Development resources
 * Mods
 * Tutorials|Tutorials
 * Minecraft Dungeons|Minecraft Dungeons
 * MCD:Item|Items
 * MCD:Melee Weapon|Melee weapons
 * MCD:Ranged Weapon|Ranged weapons
 * MCD:Armor|Armor
 * MCD:Artifact|Artifacts
 * MCD:Consumable|Consumables
 * MCD:Cosmetics|Cosmetics
 * MCD:Enchantment|Enchantments
 * MCD:Mob|Mobs
 * MCD:Location|Locations
 * MCD:Gameplay|Gameplay
 * MCD:Story|Story
 * MCD:Skin|Skins
 * MCD:Achievement|Achievements
 * MCD:Difficulty|Difficulties
 * MCD:Controls|Controls
 * #|Mechanics
 * MCD:Souls|Souls
 * MCD:Levels|Levels
 * MCD:Enchanting|Enchanting
 * MCD:Daily Trial|Daily Trials
 * MCD:Ancient Hunts|Ancient Hunts
 * MCD:Tutorials|Tutorials
 * Minecraft Earth|Minecraft Earth
 * MCE:Mob|Mobs
 * MCE:Tappable|Tappables
 * MCE:Gameplay|Gameplay
 * MCE:Journal|Journal
 * MCE:Make Stuff|Make Stuff
 * MCE:Buildplate|Buildplates
 * MCE:Challenges|Challenges
 * MCE:Seasons|Seasons
 * Official pages


 * Help:Official sources|Official links
 * https://minecraft.net/|Website
 * https://help.minecraft.net/|Support
 * https://feedback.minecraft.net|Feedback
 * https://bugs.mojang.com/|Bug tracker
 * #|Discord
 * https://discord.gg/minecraft|Minecraft
 * https://discord.gg/minecraftdungeons|Minecraft Dungeons
 * https://discord.gg/minecraftearth|Minecraft Earth
 * #|Twitter
 * https://twitter.com/Minecraft|Minecraft
 * https://twitter.com/dungeonsgame|Minecraft Dungeons
 * https://twitter.com/minecraftearth|Minecraft Earth
 * #|Other media
 * https://www.facebook.com/minecraft|Facebook
 * https://instagram.com/minecraft|Instagram
 * https://www.youtube.com/minecraft|YouTube
 * https://www.twitch.tv/minecraft|Twitch
 * That way we can include more useful links, also without being redundant on usage of many "something|something" (it does work). Thejoaqui777 (talk) 00:20, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Hydra

 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
 * Hydra will no longer be able to be used at all making this discussion obsolete in a few months. Humiebeetalk contribs 17:23, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

This sub-section will be used to discuss the hydra sidebar. For games, MCE should be removed (no discontinued stuff) and MCD Arcade should be added. There is also a dungeons sidebar so the twitter and discord for dungeons can be done accordingly. Instagram should be added, Minecraft Twitch should be renamed to Twitch, all mechanics (trading, brewing, enchanting, crafting, smelting) in the hydra sidebar should be clumped into Mechanics. Technical stuff should not be added. Blocks, Items, and Mobs should be moved to the top and gameplay should be added. Humiebeetalk contribs 21:35, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know why we should discuss this. Soon in August, all wikis should be using FandomDesktop by default, and later, Hydra skin will be removed from options to switch. --TreeIsLife (talk) 06:54, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, at least the admins should repace MCE with MCD Arcade, this discussion is now irrelevant. Humiebeetalk contribs 17:23, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Convert the Tutorials pages into their own namespaces
I'm reviving Minecraft Wiki talk:Community portal/Archive 26

That discussion actually is worth of reopening. Tutorials are an important part of any game wiki, as it is a secure way to keep documentated facts that aren't able to be into normal articles.

This was opposed before mainly because (if I read the old discussion correctly) other namespaces couldn't be accessed with the "Random page" link. However, that is no longer the case, as now Minecraft Dungeons and Minecraft Earth articles can be accessed with the link.

If we do this, then we should do this (see the table):

The reason is that tutorials are an important part of the wiki. Though the Minecraft Wiki is meant to explain factual data about the game, it can't do that completely without the tutorial pages. Things such as redstone circuits, general farms, game quirks, functions, and information about the game's UIs all are stored within tutorials. This is factual evidence that can only really be given in a tutorial format, as the main articles oesn't alllow tutorial-like content.

Now I'll show another table showing the advantages, disadvantages and arguments for them: What do you think of this proposal?, as this really needed to be discussed again. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 00:03, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I actually had forgotten for a while that they weren't a separate namespace. (Or did they used to be?  I honestly can't remember.)  In any case, Terraria Wiki uses a namespace for their equivalent Guides, so its feasibility is demonstrated by example. --MentalMouse42 (talk) 00:30, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * per my comment on #The problem with subpages.Humiebeetalk contribs 00:54, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * . I don't see how any of the four advantages are substantial or valid. Most visitors would get to tutorials from the search engine (not even the on-site search or the random page button), which means optimizing for the latter two ways should not be done at the expense of the first one, and page moves of any kind are harmful to search engine optimization, while the subpage structure is very well understood by search engines. So #1 is an advantage that will be targeted at the expense of the average reader. #2 is invalid, any policy can be changed to adapt to circumstances, and we shouldn't try to adapt circumstances to policy at substantial expense of user experience. The talk page issue doesn't seem problematic at all, at most weird for the more involved of readers (most of who won't even use talk pages). The namespace shortcuts are not going to be used by readers as they won't have any idea of them (and once again, they'll most likely be coming from search engines who at best won't care about shortcuts); in addition, the proposed shortcuts can conflict with potential "talk" shortcuts. --AttemptToCallNil (talk) 10:02, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * It is true. The policy can be changed so how to write tutorials should be explained better than how it is done now. The main reason of this is the point #1, which explains that subpages can't be accessed from the Random page link. If this can break the search engine, maybe we could find a solution to this. Subpages can't be shown easily, and that's another reason of why. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 13:15, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * - Namespace? No. I feel we should not make an soup opera from Namespaces. Namespaces are here to seperate functions between pages. All namespaces have purporse. With creating new, however, we should consider why it is needed to make a new namespace. For example, with Minecraft Earth and Dungesons - "Different games". Games, which are not 100%-ly Minecraft, but are from Minecraft Universe (Minecraft Earth, Dungeons, Story Mode) and have potential to have more content, yes. This doesn't. It may have more content, but it is really needed? No. --TreeIsLife (talk) 14:09, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * . Tutorials serve a very different purpose to definitive fact-based Minecraft Wiki articles, but are a necessary commodity for this Wiki to serve. (Is there anywhere close to as good a resource as we have here for Redstone logic gates? I don't think so.) New and old players utilize these resources, and they are key to this Wiki's helpfulness, while being very different from say, and article about a block or item. For this reason, and since most people find tutorials through the search bar anyway, and for categorization and organaiztion purposes, I dig this idea. --DigiDuncan (talk) 03:59, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * These pages have been in the mainspace for far longer than they should have been and are well overdue for being kicked out. The style guide specifically forbids tutorial info from mainspace articles, so why these insisted on remaining mainspace articles for a decade plus is beyond me. - User-12316399 (talk) 04:29, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * For the shortcuts, MCT is already used (Minecraft Wiki talk). Possibly MT and MDT/DT? (consistant) and the talk would be MTT and MDTT or DTT) Humiebeetalk contribs 14:05, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * , for now. Not a single one of the advantages listed is compelling. Going through them one at a time: (1) We don't need badly-written tutorials to be accessible via the Random Page link, as they are not representative of article-quality pages. (2) Lacking a dedicated name space doesn't preclude creating a standard definition for a tutorial, this can be done with or without a name space. (3) Tutorial talk pages are already specific to each tutorial. Tutorials are sub-pages, each sub-page has its own dedicated talk page, and some of those talk pages have already seen heavy use (such as Talk:Tutorials/Drowned_farming, for example). If this isn't a problem for other wikis, I don't see why it's a problem here. (4) Consistent shortcuts can already exist without a name space; we just have to agree on what they are. No name space is needed to create redirect links. Before we rearrange an existing mess, we need to clean up the existing mess, and develop clear guidelines about what should be in a tutorial, how to write them, what the video policy would be (not well defined at the moment) and how to prevent tutorials from growing into indiscriminate lists of "helpful" advice. Amatulic (talk) 03:10, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * now for a couple of reasons:
 * This discussion was opened because the tutorials aren't easily accessible for users and they are difficult to maintain. However, as mentioned, namespaces should be about a topic, and for example Minecraft tutorials being in the (main) namespace makes sense. Same with tutorials on the Minecraft Dungeons namespace.
 * Our real issue is handling all those badly written tutorials, the horrible navbox that includes all of them, and their accessibility id just the least important part of their problem.
 * Enabling 2 namespaces would reduce our chances to be able to receive/enable more custom namespaces on the future,and there will probably be more Minecraft games on the future.
 * Oppose per AttemptToCallNil's, TreeIsLife's and Amatulic's comments.
 * A solution I can give is linking them on the main page similar to what Template:DidYouKnow does.
 * Those are my reasons of why it wouldn't be a good idea. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 14:35, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Flavors of "renewability"
I see a lot of infoboxes listing a resource as "renewable", and simply having a single label for everything renewable gives a false impression about practicality.

It might be useful to readers to have some distinctions between flavors of renewability. Logs are easily renewable by planting the saplings dropped from trees when harvesting them. While it's difficult to get a trident, the only way to get one is from a drowned. But is anybody really going to go through the agony of going into the Nether to defeat a wither skeleton just to get some coal? Technically coal is renewable, but practically it isn't, so it's kind of misleading to give it the same label as an oak log in terms of renewability.

Seeing "Renewable: Yes" in an infobox, therefore, is not useful information to me as a player. I'd like to see some qualifiers, like "Renewability: Easy/Moderate/Hard", indicating the effort and risk required to obtain the resource by means other than mining, in Survival mode.

Examples:
 * Bee nest: Renewability is easy, requiring a small amount of low-risk effort (albeit by grinding) to plant oak or birch trees near flowers.
 * Cobblestone: Renewability is easy, requiring resources to obtain a bucket for water and lava.
 * Iron ingot: Renewability is moderately difficult given that one generally needs several ingots. One can build a basic iron farm in survival mode, but it's a low risk activity that takes effort and time.
 * String: Renewability has variable effort and risk. Risk can be high (going to the Nether to barter, or hunting spiders) or time consuming (relying on chance from fishing, bartering, cat gifts). In my experience, string is one resource I'd like to have early in the game but in some games I have found it extremely difficult to obtain.
 * Sand: I'd say moderate; it's technically renewable by trading, but considering the value of emeralds it's a poor exchange, especially if you need a lot of sand and there is no village available.
 * Mob heads: Renewability is hard. This is something that is renewable more by accident than intentionally. Not practical at all.
 * Clay: Hard, high risk. The only renewable way to get it is to gain Hero of the Village, and then you can get it only if the village has a mason who survived the raid.

I realize there's a lot of subjectivity here, but maybe we could come up with more objective criteria. One idea might be to plot items on a grid with axes representing effort and risk or cost. Amatulic (talk) 18:57, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , I have 1 problem, this is opinion based. Also, how do you even make a graph, a poll? At the very most, do something like biome where it shows only a few options, not something all out.Humiebeetalk contribs 19:08, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , simply too subjective to implement; it's not a game definition, so it is entirely opinion based.
 * People can judge for themselves by reading the obtaining sections. Dhranios (talk) (Join the wiki videos project!) 19:21, 25 March 2021 (UTC)


 * making changes to the infobox field aside from possibly removing it. I agree that the current information isn't super useful (e.g. it's hardly practical to get renewable resources through the wandering trader), but classifying by cost or risk is subjective, and I can't think of many other classifications that would both be useful and clear enough to not warrant an explanation (which would be too much for an infobox field). I wouldn't be opposed to making a bigger deal on renewability in the obtaining sections, especially for items like concrete powder where it's not immediately obvious without reading the pages of its crafting ingredients. – Sonicwave talk   20:18, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * moving the renewability out of the infobox and into obtaining. Dhranios (talk) (Join the wiki videos project!) 22:45, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * moving the renewability out of the infobox and into obtaining. It does require more explanation than a simple yes/no.  --MentalMouse42 (talk) 02:28, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The general issue of difficulty in renewability is something that has come up before; the biggest factor in difficulty is actually gating. In general, an up-front investment can reduce the "cost" (time, effort) of most resources by at least one order of magnitude and sometimes more.
 * E.g., String is difficult to obtain in the early game, but once the player has iron armor and weapons, spiders are little threat... and once they can find and farm a spider spawner, it's trivial.
 * Likewise for iron -- early in the game it's just easier to mine for it, but once the player has enough resources to manhandle villagers and build an iron farm....
 * A similar pattern applies to tradeables in general -- initially subject to random chance, but once you invest the time and resources (cash-crop farms, a trading hall, cultivated trades), that gate is basically passed -- the emerald cost of something turns into "how many do you need?".
 * The wandering trader represents a slightly special case, in that you need to wait for a desired offer, and can only get a limited supply.
 * That said, there certainly are a few things where even farming leaves them pretty costly. Nether stars are the poster boy for those...
 * Even on smaller scales: E.g, I recently built a basic music disk farm, where I still need to wait for creepers to come by, lure them into the killing yard, then dodge arrows from my named skelly for a bit.  Way better than fooling around in the open night, but not quite trivial.
 * Witch farms probably qualify in this category too, in that the scaling basically means that you really do need to "go big or go home".
 * And when the effort for something is totally out of proportion to the value (e.g., the clay example), it might technically be renewable, but not in practical terms.
 * --MentalMouse42 (talk) 02:28, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Addendum: Knowledge also matters a lot:  E.g., iron golem farms require a lot of technical knowledge (or exact adherence to a plan), witch farms a little less, and (pigman-based) gold farms a fair bit. --MentalMouse42 (talk) 02:52, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * ...which is odd, because I can easily create an iron farm but I have never ever gotten a witch farm to work. For gold, I get all I need from drowned farming with a zombie spawner, which is probably less complicated than doing it in the Nether. Amatulic (talk) 00:34, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * removing from infobox and adding to obtaining. Also, string is definatly easier to obtain than bee nests.Humiebeetalk contribs 18:57, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
 * moving from the infobox to the obtaining section. Some items definitely need a more thorough explanation rather than a simple yes/no.--Capopanzo (talk) 00:08, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
 * (as the person who started this discussion): removing the renewability parameter from the infobox in favor of explaining the renewability in the article text. There are too many flavors of renewability for a single infobox parameter. Amatulic (talk) 00:31, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * To add to all of this, pretty much everything renewable (with the exception of wandering trader exclusives) has a farm. String - has a farm. Bee nests? - has a farm. Villager goods? - make an emerald farm. Clay? - make a raid farm. Beacons? - Obsidian farms exist, nether star farms exist (which is quite OP) and glass can be obtained via trading (emerald farm). Dirt? - make an azalea tree farm or something. Renewablility changes as you progress through the game. Humiebeetalk contribs 13:49, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * , but . Renewability should be both in the infobox and obtaining section, because if someone wanted to check renewability for coal, they could go to the wiki page for it, see "Renewable: yes" and then go to the obtaining section to see how they can reobtain it again. Removing the infobox section could remove a useful identifier, because then if someone wanted to check if something was renewable and it wasn't, they could stop reading as soon as they see "Renewable: No" and not have to search through the obtaining section. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:36, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Gosh, and I thought this was pretty much settled that we would remove the non-informative parameter from the template. It's useless unless it can be made into something more than a binary indicator, and as has been pointed out, that is impractical because of the subjectivity and complexity. A section in the article is sufficient. Amatulic (talk) 04:40, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Our infoboxes also can show their row descriptions when a Discord bot like Wiki-bot reads them. Removing the "Renewable" section from the infobox would make difficult to users who use Discord to see if the block is renewable or not without going to the page. It's worth to consider things like that because on our Discord server we use Wiki-bot a lot. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 05:40, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The sub-section can be established to always start with the sentence "[the item] is/is not renewable", keeping finding the information easy and quick. Blue Banana whotookthisname (talk) 09:59, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Remember that our infoboxes also can show their row descriptions when a Discord bot like Wiki-bot reads them, like Wiki-bot, so removing the "Renewable" section from the infobox wouldn't be the best idea. Also, infoboxes are supposed to give just a few wiew of things, not to be actual complete information sections, which makes the simple "Renewable: Yes" make sense. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 13:19, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Remember that our infoboxes also can show their row descriptions when a Discord bot like Wiki-bot reads them, like Wiki-bot, so removing the "Renewable" section from the infobox wouldn't be the best idea. Also, infoboxes are supposed to give just a few wiew of things, not to be actual complete information sections, which makes the simple "Renewable: Yes" make sense. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 13:19, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

RfC: More admins?
Currently, there are 5 admins with only 2 truly active ( and ), Sonicwave mentioned in a comment that he wanted to reduce activity on the wiki, KnightMiner and Madminecrafter12 don't edit that much). I think we need more admins (For example, I noticed that Category:Pending deletion has more than 300 pages/files in it and Category:Pending speedy deletion even has more than 3 pages in it). Currently, there are 8 9 active patrollers (TheGreatFall, Magiczocker, PancakeIdentity, Amatulic, HaydenBobMutthew, NineTreyBlud, BDJP007301, and User-12316399) with 6 7 registering (shown in bold) before 2020 and one who is already a director (shown in italics). I also made this post because there has been a decrease in 2 admins within the past 7 months (Majr exactly 7 months ago and Dhranios about 2 $1/2$ months ago). I am no expert in this and I just created this because the amount of clutter in the wiki (pending deletion files and other things) were increasing a lot and I was worried that too little admins would result in a decrease in moderation and an increase in vandalism (yes, there is no vandalism that remains on the wiki today but it often takes days to weeks for an admin to respond in the Block requests and Protection requests). I also recall in the RfC: Appoint a new bureaucrat discussion said that 9 admins was too little. If 9 admins is too little, than 5 admins (and especially 2 active admins) is far too little.


 * Update, Auldrick is also in the list now bringing the total from 8 to 9. Also changed 6 mo to 7 mo Humiebeetalk contribs 01:19, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

All in all, Humiebeetalk contribs 17:29, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Do we need a new admin? (I feel that we do)
 * 2) If so, how many? (Probably 2 to replace the 2 that were demoted/self-demoted in the past 2 months)
 * 3) And who should it be? (A patroller, probably someone in bold)
 * We have 6 admins from Fandom's original MCW, so there is no need to do this, until we will know their decision to become admin. --TreeIsLife (talk) 19:10, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * And don't forget that Majr has been completely inactive for over a year now, it was only 6 months ago that they finally got demoted, thanks to my AN post. James Haydon (talk) 19:57, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I mentioned that... (the past 6 months (Majr exactly 6 months ago and Dhranios about 1 $1/2$ months ago).) Humiebeetalk contribs 21:45, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Who are they?
 * Have they even made an edit on the wiki?
 * The original fandom mc wiki was a LOT different than this wiki (it was less popular so less moderating needed, protection needed if it was low-traffic, did the MediaWiki: namespace exist?
 * Humiebeetalk contribs 21:45, 15 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I would like to comment something. While it is true that some editors you mentioned have been editing for many time and they may be very trustable, I'm not sure if more admins is the solution. Of course more admins mean more maintenance, but they would have acces also to some special tools, and I don't know what can happen. So I propose this: Giving some of them the content moderator user group. I can say that as a content moderator on the Spanish wiki I can delete and protect and unprotect pages, and do the same things that patrollers, but I can't edit some pages and I can't give user rights to other people as they are locked for me since I don't have complete admin rights. I think that giving some people the content moderator role would make more sense since we can get more moderation on the things that need moderation, but also making sure that private admin-only pages are protected. What do you think about this? Thejoaqui777 (talk) 23:42, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * For main-space maintenance work (which is mostly what is needed), I think that's a perfect solution. Amatulic (talk) 23:49, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * content moderator role and 1 - 2 new admins . Content moderator would take load off of admins (and solve the pending deletion and protection requests problem) and 1 - 2 new admins would replace the -2 in the past 7 mo. Humiebeetalk contribs 20:20, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Update, see my comment below. Humiebeetalk contribs 13:31, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I've been an admin on the English Wikipedia since 2010 (can't believe it's been over a decade). I could probably do the job here too if needed, although I suspect there are a number of features on this wiki that I have no knowledge about. But for general "janitorial" work (protection, deletion, blocking), it's no problem. On the other hand, I've been quite happy as a regular contributor here, and I enjoy not doing admin work for a change. Once you're an admin, you find there's no end of cleanup work to do (especially on en-wiki) and you hardly have time anymore to contribute content. Amatulic (talk) 23:36, 20 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Agree that the wiki needs more higher level users. Content moderator sounds like a good tool to hand out to a few people but we also need a new admin or too as there's not too many active.  Nixinova   T   C   04:36, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I think all of the users Humiebee listed in boldface above, as well as Humiebee, can be trusted with the content moderator role, if any of them are willing to take it on. Speaking for myself, I'm more willing to serve as a content moderator than an admin at this time. More content moderators would take some load off admins, reducing the load to more serious duties such as blocking and page protection. What's the process here for making it happen? Amatulic (talk) 05:35, 21 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Agree that the wiki needs more people to handle daily requests like page deletion, block users and revert vandalism. I can also act as content moderator if needed. Mystic Nebula 70  T  05:40, 21 May 2021 (UTC)


 * As for admin roles, I don't think I have that much time to do it since I'm also admin on zh wiki (and helper on Fandom, which takes even more time). But I can give some advice though. Mystic Nebula 70  T  05:44, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I would also really want to have the content moderator role for myself even though I'm a new user. It would help a lot with handling all the speculation pages that get created on the MCD side of the wiki, and the vandals here as well. James Haydon (talk) 15:35, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I just noticed that this discussion exists and I'm listed above in bold text. The content moderator role don't add anything new to my abilities. As example, I can protect pages for vandalism as SOAP and patrol pages as patroller. - Magiczocker (talk) 15:47, 21 May 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree that there should be more admins and content moderators to handle vandalism and especially the deletion category, which tends to become massive often within days. I would like to note however that content moderators would be able to edit the main page, rules and other admin-protected pages/templates. This isn't necessarily a downside since they could respond to front page version syncing requests, but it's something that should be considered. – Sonicwave talk   19:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I know that content moderators would be able to edit the main page, but that's the same situation if we promote a new admin too. The reason of why content moderators can help us is that they would be able to handle page maintenance and vandalism with more measures than patrollers, but without access to some admin stuff that probably should be handled with caution. I also agree that maybe one or two new admins would be really welcomed too. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 22:45, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I disagree with need of another user group being used on Minecraft Wiki, I don't think it's necessary to employ a new group to do things that are being done today with other group.
 * I agree that Minecraft Wiki desperately needs more administrators, I think that's a fact, yet Minecraft Wiki already uses two roles that would be considered non-standard, such as Directors and Patrollers. I think adding more complexity to wiki group structure makes the wiki less clear on who is managing it, what are their roles and what groups do. "Content moderator" in the name itself is better described than Directors but it's not perfect either, what is content and what isn't? Of course, I know what it does from Special:ListGroupRights but that's because I've been on wikis for 8 years or something. What I believe the wiki needs is administration. I don't think the problem should be resolved with yet another group, I think using existing groups for this purpose such as administrators (sysops) is just fine. If you trust someone enough to delete pages, edit protected pages, or read deleted content I think there is no reason not to give such a person an administrator. People mentioned above in bold have been on the wiki for a long time and are pretty known in the community for those who interact in it.
 * So I guess, my question is, why exactly do we need to utilize yet another group to do the same tasks that were previously handled fine by administrators? What exactly are the things that you define as "admin stuff that probably should be handled with caution"? Wikis are built with reversibility in mind, anything that is done by the user or an admin alike should be reversible. Unless you suggest that new Content Moderator candidates would be in the future working in bad faith I don't see a reason why not just use administrator group instead. Sometimes the real solution is simpler than needlessly adding more variables to (in my opinion) already bureaucratic and complex equation. Frisk (talk) 12:22, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * What is the difference between content moderator and administrator? They both can edit the main page, rules, protected templates, delete and restore pages, block and unblock people, what do content moderators not have that administrators have ? Humiebeetalk contribs 13:31, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Content Moderators don't have as many permissions as admins. They can't block users and they can only edit some admin-only pages. They can still delete pages, restore pages and protect pages, and edit protected pages though. James Haydon (talk) 13:36, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Still, I feel like anyone who can be trusted with content moderator should be trusted with blocking (patrollers have experience with vandalism) and editing protected pages (like what happened with splash and human). I don't get how the current patrollers can't be trusted with 2 additional features. What I also noticed is that there are a lot of autopatrol people that can be trusted with admin/content mod such as Thejoaqui777 as well. Humiebeetalk contribs 13:41, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I do strongly agree that Content Moderator should come with the block permission. Would make it useful as a vandalism fighting role. James Haydon (talk) 13:45, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * , then what would be the difference... Also, if content moderators can protect pages, why can't they edit those pages that were just protected??????????????????????????????????????????????? Humiebeetalk contribs 13:50, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * They can. Their editing permissions = admins, except they can't edit MW ns --TreeIsLife (talk) 14:46, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Well they still can't edit all protected pages then. James Haydon (talk) 15:17, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If they can edit the rules, the only difference between content moderator and admin is that they can't edit MCW:About, MCW:Copyrights, MCW:Directors, MCW:General Disclaimer, and MCW:Issues subpages... Either downgrade content moderator (to the same rights as what MysticNebula70 said) or don't use it (like what Frisk said). They can't be trusted with editing MCW:Protected pages???? Humiebeetalk contribs 21:13, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * On zh wiki we just modified the Patroller's rights, so they can block users, delete pages, however they cannot edit fully-protected pages. Mystic Nebula 70 <sub style="color: #2bbee6;"> T  14:42, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I feel like there is enough support to promote at least 1 admin though content moderator still needs to be discussed. Humiebeetalk contribs 21:20, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Who?
Who should be the admin? Like I said above, it should be a patroller.
 * did not want to be an admin.
 * in Nixinova's talk page said this

In my opinion, this is the person who should become the administrator (with 1. being my top choice and 8. being my botton choice) Humiebeetalk contribs 21:20, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) TIED
 * 2) See below
 * 3) The rest of the names I did not mention - Longtime contributer, active patrollers, never blocked
 * 4)  - Was blocked from editing File: for several months but a very helpful longtime contributer.
 * 5) TIED - see below
 * 6)  and  - First became active in August 2020 so still somewhat new, Giving admin to second does not change their roles much.
 * 7)  - Still quite new and not as active in the past month.
 * 8)  - does not wish to be an admin.
 * How does being new hinder my chances at becoming an admin? I know I haven't been here for very long, but that doesn't mean I'm not a trustworthy person. James Haydon (talk) 13:50, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Didn't you say on User talk:Nixinova that an admin would need 2 - 4 years of editing? Humiebeetalk contribs 22:02, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Well that would be highly recommended but some people can prove themselves worthy in a year or two. I have been editing since June 2020, with me starting to become majorly active in August. Long term activity is a very good thing to have for such a role, but there are newer editors that have proven themselves trustworthy enough, like you. James Haydon (talk) 22:05, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * True though all the people on the lis can be trusted, we can only select a few (which is why I made a priority list). It would be cool to be an admin but I would probably want to keep editing until July 2021 (1 year editing mark), then I would consider requesting for admin. Instead, I want to be a patroller. Humiebeetalk contribs 22:25, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I do not wish to be an admin. TheGreatFall (talk) 13:58, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Might as well drop my eight cents here. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that we need more admins here, but we need to make sure to pick the right person/people to be given these responsibilities so we don't get someone who never does anything or possibly someone who doesn't have the best interests of the wiki in mind. I guess I'll just do what you did and rank each candidate by how much I support each one being given admin rights.
 *  - I know he said he didn't want to be an admin here at all. But he didn't necessarily say he'd oppose being given the content mod role, and if that becomes a thing, I'd definitely support him being given that given their nearly 11 years of admin experience on Wikipedia
 * Oh, I'm willing to do the job if I'm called to it. On the English Wikipedia, there's such a huge backlog of admin work over there that an admin doesn't have time to do much else besides mop up messes. I can ignore the backlog and be a content editor but it's hard when there's so much to mop up. Thinking about it more, I suspect that wouldn't happen here here on this wiki, which is smaller and more laid-back. I expect I'd still be able to do constructive stuff with an occasional need to perform an administrative act. Amatulic (talk) 15:27, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , the main reason why I created this post in the first place was because there was a backlog, of pages in Category:Pending deletion. Also, there seems to be an increasing number of unblocked vandals, just as I feared. Humiebeetalk contribs 21:51, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 *  - definitely wouldn't have supported giving them admin when I first joined the wiki, but it's been like six years and I don't really see any reason to oppose giving 'em admin rights now. I feel like that came off kinda harsh. The point I'm tryin' to make here is that they've grown ever since they joined this place
 *  - being a newer user hasn't stopped people from becoming admins on this wiki in the past - became an admin just 17 days after he created his account for example. 2010 was definitely a different time here, but still. If you can get that much experience in that little time, then I don't see a problem with going ahead and making you an admin. I personally have a couple of small nitpicks with NineTreyBlud's overall behavior here, but I can definitely see him becoming an admin in the future if he's still active
 *  - no real reason to oppose giving 'em admin rights, but as you said, giving 'em admin rights wouldn't do too much since they're already a SOAP member
 *  - active on discord, but her overall activity on the wiki itself appears to have been declining over the past year or so, meaning we could potentially just get another admin that barely does anything
 *  - not much in the way of edits in the past few months; we don't need another inactive admin here
 *  - has been blocked multiple times since 2018 for large-scale disruptive actions in the file namespace; can't really be trusted with page deletions as a result
 *  - along with what you said, their understanding of English isn't the greatest and they've since stated they don't want to be an admin anyway
 * If eight cents wasn't enough, I'll drop additional cents if needed – JEC</b> <sub style="color:#f7c">talk @ 06:29, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure the info about HaydenBobMutthew and PancakeIdentity should change my list so i'll make a new one.


 * 1) - active, long time contributer, never blocked.
 * 2) - active, not a long time contributer, never blocked (though moderation for MCD would be helpful).
 * 3) - same as BDJP but admin adds barely any new roles, just editing admin-protected pages/templates (can edit all director protected pages).
 * 4) - semi-active (comparable to Sonicwave), long time contributer, never blocked.
 * 5) - semi-active (as of VERY recently), long time contributer, never blocked.
 * 6) - active, long time contributer, blocked before.
 * 7) - not active, long time contributer, never blocked.
 * 8) - same as BDJP but does not want to be admin.
 * 9) - same as NineTreyBlud but does not want to be admin.
 * Pretty much the same except that the semi-active patrollers were moved down and NineTreyBlud was moved up because of MCD. Humiebeetalk contribs 18:16, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , Auldrick is now in the list of active patrollers. Humiebeetalk contribs 01:15, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

''Not enough for an outdent Humiebeetalk contribs
 * This discussion had been completely dormant for a few days. I'm curious to know what the final plan is going to be, and who will become admin/content moderator. James Haydon (talk) 14:53, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * It generally seems that you and BDJP are the top canditates for admin followed by Magiczoker and Auldrick. I have no idea how promotion works though we need community consensus. I still don't like the idea of content mod as the only difference is not being able to block people as well as editing a few admin (not director) MCW: namespace protected pages. Humiebeetalk contribs 00:09, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, if the content mod role isn't desirable, I'm willing to do the admin job here. I'm listed above as stating I didn't want it, but after further reflection, I doubt the admin role here would be as "janitorial" and time-sucking as it is on the English Wikipedia. On the Minecraft Wiki, the informality and lack of bureaucratic process definitions to cover every single little aspect of the site is rather refreshing, actually. Amatulic (talk) 23:04, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Auldrick? I thought Aldrick is already an admin... or used to be. Auldrick is a moderator on the Mojang bug tracker and I consider Auldrick as something of a role model here. Amatulic (talk) 23:07, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Generally for top candidates. TheGreatFall (talk | contribs) (Tagalog translation) 05:02, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I lost the track of this, but I you if you decide to just promote admins. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 23:12, 20 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I think maybe 3 new admins would be good, 2 to replace the previous 2 and 1 extra to have another active admin. It seems that we have a general consenus that someone who is experienced and most likely able to handle admin capabilities should be admin.
 * Amatuic can 100% handle admin capabilities as they have first-hand experience with it, BDJP as well (6 yrs of experience and can be easily trusted with admin (especially blocking) privilages. NineTreyBlud also has been on the wiki for more than a year and moderation for MCD would be nice (though a 13 day break is a little odd). Is he active on discord? Humiebeetalk contribs 21:51, 24 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Going to drop in my views on what I see as the major points brought up in this discussion:


 * First of all, I want to apologize for not being very active on the wiki myself. I started becoming quite busy irl a year or so ago, and although I have a lot more free time now, I tend to not be as motivated when I haven't been active in a while. I'm definitely going to try to contribute more in the future, but please note that if I'm not responding to a notification on the wiki (which, to be clear, shouldn't be the case; I check the wiki quite often even if I don't edit very frequently), I can almost certainly be reached via Discord or email if I'm needed for some important admin-related task.


 * Regarding creating a new role, I agree with almost everything Frisk says; I do not think we need a content moderator role. I honestly don't see any use of it; if you can really be trusted to have all the rights content moderator gives, you are almost certainly trustworthy enough to become an admin. If you cannot be trusted with admin roles but want to help out with patrolling pages or reverting vandalism, that's what the custom patroller role is for. As he said, a new role that we hand out would just create more confusion.


 * Yes, I definitely think more admins would be useful. However, I would say the number is heavily dependent on the quality of the people interested in becoming admin (which I'll discuss in a bit), so I don't think we should say "we should definitely promote exactly 3 more admins!" or anything. If only just one decent candidate were to exist, I'd say just promote that one, while if five very good candidates exist, I don't see a problem with promoting all five.


 * For specific candidates, I think we should cross anyone off the list if they've made it clear that they don't want to be an admin under any condition as of now. Therefore, I don't think we should even consider TheGreatFall. I'd be very ok with Auldrick, Magiczocker, Amatulic, PancakeIdentity, and/or BDJP007301 as admin. They all seem to be very familiar with how the wiki works and would put the admin tools to good use. However, I wouldn't necessarily strongly oppose any of the candidates in the list, assuming 1. they actually want to be admin, 2. they explain what they would do as admin, and 3. there's a strong consensus among the community to promote them.


 * I would recommend reaching out to all of the candidates on this list who have not yet responded to the discussion, which I believe would be HaydenBobMutthew, PancakeIdentity, Magiczocker, User-12316399, Auldrick, and BDJP007301. For whichever ones are interested, open a new section on the community portal explaining why they should be admin and see what people think. Madminecrafter12 (talk) 23:43, 8 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Replying them as pings do not work. TheGreatSpring (talk | contribs) (Tagalog translation) 00:06, 9 July 2021 (UTC)


 * As TheGreatFall mentioned, using the @ping template may not work. However, their talk pages may be able to trigger a notification, so that's another option too. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 01:55, 9 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you to for messaging me on my talk page: I was unaware of this discussion until now. Thank you also to those of you who nominated me and spoke up for me. To be honest, I thought I was seen as a thorn in the wiki's side, so it's gratifying to learn that not everybody feels that way about me. Unfortunately, I don't think I have the right temperament to be an administrator. Instead, I would offer a suggestion: Don't be picky! We need to have as many admins as possible, at least while we have big backlogs, because even if a single admin could theoretically make progress by themself, you have to factor in the fact that there is no reward for this work and they'll eventually burn out. But they can't take a break, because then they'll lose the little bit of progress they made. This leads to feelings of inadequacy and hopelessness and being trapped in a job you hate, and the next thing you know you're looking for a new admin to replace them. I think the admin role should be granted to anybody who might do a halfway decent job, and we should trust the wiki to correct itself as was suggested above. That way admins might be more willing to take breaks when they need them, letting others pick up the slack. I also think it would be a good idea for the administrator role to be limited to a year or two, by definition, so that the admin can request reappointment if they feel up to it but can bow out gracefully with no shame or sense of failure if they don't. — Auldrick (talk &middot; contribs) 04:42, 9 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I appreciate the ping, but I was already aware of this discussion going on. I didn't want to say anything until the discussion had died down (which it appears to have done so). I appreciate those that have considered me for admin, and to be honest, it would be an honor to become one, though of course I will leave it up to fellow editors and current administrators. I've been on this wiki for over seven years at this point, gradually rising and learning a lot. What I basically would do when I'm not busy typing up chapter summaries for Minecraft novels or creating an article about some other Minecraft product (I mean, we even got a special cereal) is clearing out maintenance categories, blocking disruptive editors, and protecting pages from vandalism, invalid page moves, etc.. BDJP (t 14:55, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I fully agree that anybody who is eligable, wants to be admin, is trusted/has community approval, and is active. Since Auldrick doesn't want to be admin (and we need to have as many admins as possible). I just don't want to have more inactive admins as that's basically why I created this discussion in the first place. Humiebeetalk contribs 22:50, 9 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Above, I said I didn't think I have the right temperament to be an administrator. I wish to amend and expand on that. When it comes to the many responsibilities of an administrator, it is specifically that of exercising judgment over vandals and trolls who play at the edges of what's permissible that I fear I would be too harsh, as that sort of deliberate annoyance triggers me to unreasoning anger. But on the other hand, I generally don't mind grindy work at all as long as I can see progress, so I feel I would be suitable for many of an administrator's duties at some point in the future, on condition that another admin handle the banning duties. Unfortunately, personal matters must take precedence in the near term, so I still wish to withdraw my name from consideration at this time. I just didn't want my statement above to be seen as presumptively rejecting a future invitation to serve. — Auldrick (talk &middot; contribs) 09:27, 10 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Generally I all the candidates. I even will be back over this wiki. I am ok to be an admin there. I am ok on dealing vandalism and trolls. — HaydenBobMutthew (talk 05:51, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

BDJP007301 for admin
Following the above I would like to make some progress in this discussion and start by nominating BDJP007301 for adminship. He has been a very active contributor of this wiki for many years and is very quick to revert any vandalism that crops up and also performs many maintenance tasks and cleanup. Above he has stated his willingness to become an admin and said that he would clear maintenance categories (much needed) and be able to quell vandalism better using blocking and page protecting. He is a good fit for admin as he already focusus on protecting the wiki from vandalism and these tools will help him to do more effectively. BDJP would be a very welcome addition to the administrivate team.  Nixinova </b>  T </b>  C </b></b>  04:48, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * . TheGreatSpring (talk | contribs) (Tagalog translation) 05:15, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * . He is an experienced editor and have done a great job over years. I appreciate all his participation for a better wiki  Matyh talk  06:40, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * . BDJP would be exceptionally good at it. — Auldrick (talk &middot; contribs) 08:59, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * per my comments in . Humiebeetalk contribs 14:43, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * . — HaydenBobMutthew (talk 05:52, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Does this discussion became dormant again? TheGreatSpring (talk | contribs) (Tagalog translation) 07:04, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Not really, I think that maybe if we have 1 more support, we can promote BDJP. Humiebeetalk contribs 17:27, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

When we should archive sections here
I want to discuss a thing of when to archive discussions on CP.

There are few possibilities
 * Archiving based on when discussion ended
 * Archiving based on when discussion started and "some" days/weeks passed since last comment
 * Archiving, when the article has more then "number" KB of discussion
 * Archiving, when there are "number" of sections
 * Archiving based on 3 months cycle
 * And different

Making it clear may help everybody to haave some rules about when we can close and archive the discussion --TreeIsLife (talk) 20:39, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Any one of these criteria alone is not always sufficient. The first point should apply only when related discussions no longer reference the discussion to be archived. The second choice might be done with a bot, but depending on the amount of activity, the time period might be different. Archiving based on page size is a good universal guideline, but would probably not be applied as often. Archiving based on number of sections is a problem when the sections are very short or very long. Periodic archiving would probably not work as intended, but we do partition archives based on set time periods. (Note that talk pages are not articles, and you misspelled "have".) Fadyblok240 (talk) 23:12, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Archival on MCW:AN is done by the second one where it is archived in order when the discussion started (so discussions on MCW:AN will look the same in archived). CP is a little different because discussion size varies a LOT unlike AN which is just short requests and questions. I like the 3 months cycle combined with the 2nd one so everything EXCEPT major discussions gets archived. Major discussions like the more admins post can be the first one. Humiebeetalk contribs 21:59, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Images for version pages instead of sprites
<div class="boilerplate discussion-archived" style="background-color: #efe; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Currently, a lot of version pages are just a wall of text that doesn't show the actual items or blocks. There are multiple instances of using the sprite templates (e.g. BlockLink, ItemLink) to show these, however, these have been opposed and removed in the past multiple times because the templates show the latest textures, so the images would increasingly become less accurate for the version.

I propose just using the image revision system we already have. Here is an example for Java Edition 1.7.2:


 * Packed Ice JE1 BE2.png Packed ice


 * Packed Ice JE1 BE2.png Packed ice
 * When broken, it does not turn into water, like normal ice blocks do.
 * Does not melt.
 * Opaque, rather than translucent like normal ice.

This is not new by any means. Various version pages for Alpha and Beta and Java Edition 1.0.0 do this, as well as Caves & Cliffs. I can't see why this can't be done for all version pages.

Also, I'd like to address the capitalization inconsistency when listing block and item names. Sometimes they use sentence case (i.e. Java Edition 1.15, Java Edition 1.16), but other times they use in-game capitalization (i.e. Bedrock Edition 1.16.0, Java Edition 1.17) – Unavailablehoax (talk) 19:25, 18 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm about the image changes, because images are definitely more accurate than the sprites, but their problem is the space they take on desktop devices, and that on FandomDesktop/FandomMobile they might mess up galeries, though that doesn't happen usually. And sprites while being innacurate don't create those situations, so I don't know. However,  following in-game capitalization, because that's the actual way of naming things on the games and we shouldn't change that. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 21:14, 18 June 2021 (UTC)


 * I about that, because the reader can see how that block/item looks like without clicking the link, bringing a convenientcy to the readers. Also, it is more consistent to do that with Alpha and Beta pages. HaydenBobMutthew (talk 07:36, 19 June 2021 (UTC)


 * About the capitalization, we have a style guide for that, MCW:CAPS. It's pretty comprehensive, so there shouldn't be a question about how to capitalize things. Amatulic (talk) 15:36, 19 June 2021 (UTC)


 * . BDJP (t 20:31, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , there shouldn't even be a discussion, the wiki is all about being up to date and being accurate. I'll close this discussion if there are no objections in the next 24 hours. Humiebeetalk contribs 22:56, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Wiki skin
Bring Back The Old Wiki. This New One Isn’t Very Minecrafty, And There Is Too Much Ads And Glitches, The Old One Was Much Better If You Dont Like Ads Or Dont want to be involved with other franchises, Either Bring It Back Or Make A Option To Disable The New UI/Enable The Old One. – Unsigned comment added by 174.72.185.53 (talk) at 02:38, 6 July 2021 (UTC). Sign comments with
 * We can't do that, at least for non-logged users. Registered users can set their preferences back to Hydra, but it's temporal since this new skin will be the new one for all fandom wikis. However, some users are currently making a CSS to bring back the Minecraft style to the wiki, and it's looking good. The old wiki skin won't come back, but we're doing an effort to make the new one a good and interesting skin. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 02:43, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Community AMA – international initiative
Hello!

For a while now over on Minecraft Wiki Discord we have thrown around the idea of creating a community AMA over on r/minecraft. This idea has a couple of goals. While at first the idea was to make the community more aware of how they can help expand on the wiki, suggest some ideas on improving the wikis and generally allow us for more communication with the community. Today, with forced introduction of FandomDesktop there are many community members rightfully having some issues and questions.

I believe it would be a great opportunity to talk with reader community, potentially encourage some of them to contribute and gather more ideas. This could help not just the English community, but also many international wikis since Reddit is an international community.

It would be great to have community of Minecraft Wikis to participate in answering questions in this AMA, all editors are welcome to join in, of English Minecraft Wiki or any other international Minecraft Wiki communities. The details of AMA are yet to be established, we count on cooperation of subreddit moderators in organizing it. Very likely there will also be a channel on English Minecraft Wiki Discord Server for participants who decide to join in to cooperate on answering questions, since I think some chaos will be given for an event with many participants without any organized body behind them (which is usually the case for AMAs).

If you have any ideas for this initiative, or would like to express interest in joining the AMA as an editor let us know (with your reddit username in the latter case). Frisk (talk) 🐐🧼 00:02, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I fully support this AMA initiative, and would like to participate as an editor (same username on Reddit as here). Has this matter been discussed with r/Minecraft moderators already? --AttemptToCallNil (talk) 09:45, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I would like to participate as well, u/MarkusRost is my Reddit account. MarkusRost (talk) 09:51, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * this idea completely, since it not only would be an opportunity to explain the situation, but it's also an opportunity to expand us to a wider public. By "expand us" I meant helping users to know how to edit and do things. On Discord I'm TheSuperPlayer, and my reddit account is u/thejoaqui777 (like my wiki account), so I'm able to participate too. Note that I may not be available on certain days, so maybe I can be there or I may not. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 13:45, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * . Reddit account is u/TheNintenGuru. BDJP (t 13:49, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , seems like a good idea. u/Nixinova 23:17, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * this is really nice idea, as readers will be able to talk to many of editors (us), who built many parts of this wiki. Regarding reddit account: u/ItzTreeIsLife. --TreeIsLife (talk) 13:34, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Banner shield crafting recipe
Hello everyone! I was scrolling through the crafting recipes and noticed that on the banner shield recipe, that it didn’t mention that the recipe is Java only. I would add that edit on my own however I have minimal experience in editing the wiki therefore I didn’t really know what I was doing. If anyone can edit the missing information in that would be greatly appreciated!

I just thought that newer players who play bedrock or pocket edition would think that you could add banners to shields and semi frustrated why the wiki says it’s do able but it’s not crafting.

peace,


 * Simply put java. Humiebeetalk contribs 22:54, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Accessibility
Hi who else thinks that Minecraft wiki is not that accessible? I think it’s just really crowded and hard to navigate when I first started using the wiki, I got really lost and ended up pressing heaps of buttons and opening every page to find what I was looking for. If we can work together to help make the wiki way more accessible that would really help new comers! leave your opinion on this if you wish! – Unsigned comment added by Minecraft.edits (talk • contribs) at July 9, 2021 (12:29) (UTC). Sign comments with
 * Personally it's just something people wil need to adapt to. The new layout isn't that bad or complicated, but it indeed takes a time to become used to it (we have been testing it for like a month). I can tell you what are the new things: We now have a top navigation bar, a global left navigation bar, the ability to expand/collapse pages, a new tool bar to the bottom right part of pages. THe top navigation bar has some menus which are the same as before but ported to that bar, but also has searche, recent changes and theme toggler buttons. You can find also the expand/collapse button to the left part of an article content part. And yeah we're planing to do something to help people to help, because we are a community and helping is important, because it would be difficult to explain all of it on this comment. Thejoaqui777 (talk) 13:29, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I despise FandomDesktop (no offense to Fandom, they are actually great!). You can actually stay at Hydra / Vector layouts (I use Hydra) if you don't like the new layouts. Humiebeetalk contribs 22:52, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Is this in regards to some certain functions of the cite or certain group of users? Blue Banana whotookthisname (talk) 10:30, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

New style
Why are all texts in italics now? --Betseg (talk) 20:24, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I couldn't reproduce the issue (neither could the two editors from Discord), try making sure you're not using custom browser styles or settings for the wiki. --AttemptToCallNil (talk) 21:25, 16 July 2021 (UTC)