Talk:Zombified Piglin/Archive 1

Question about the Pigmen:

In the second paragraph, it says that they drop Grilled Pork and Feathers, but under the Drops-section, it only says Grilled Pork. Which one is correct?
 * Appearently they do drop both feathers and grilled pork, but feathers are so rare that the editor who put in "grilled pork" only didnt know it dropped feathers too. I havent seen them drop feathers yet either. --BlueLegion 11:26, 15 November 2010 (CST)

Pigman AI
There's been some noise on the forums about Pigman AI. Most of the data seems doubtful, but there are some interesting observations. At the moment, I don't think there's enough evidence to call it fact, but do you think we should at least mention the theory here?
 * No, speculation is not allowed on the wiki. Miclee 17:30, 5 December 2010 (CST)

Attacking Ghasts?
As I was building in the Nether I saw a ghast wedged under a ledge such that he was effectively grounded - no space above or below. There were some zombie pigmen in the area and I didn't want to risk hitting one with an arrow so I walked over to the ghast to just kill it with my sword. On the way over one of its fireballs hit a zombie pigman, which then proceeded to run at the ghast and push it back some. The next thing I knew the ghast started taking damage and eventually died - zombie pigmen attack ghasts!

This literally just happened (paused the game and ran to the wiki to see if anyone else has seen this happen), so I don't have any more data but some MCEdit experimentation with similarly grounded ghasts is required. I don't normally see zombie pigmen go after flying ghasts, so it could be a pathing or distance issue. I also don't know if ghasts trigger all the zombie pigmen in an area like the player does on damage as I was too shocked to see one attacking a ghast to notice. RestfulMonad 19:50, 21 December 2010 (CST)


 * I got another ghast spawn in a tight place with two zombie pigmen nearby. I got the ghast to shoot one and he ran right towards it while the other one continued to wander aimlessly. I'll add a line to the Trivia section about this. RestfulMonad 05:01, 22 December 2010 (CST)

Major misinformation corrections
I've reviewed related decompiled source code (alpha 1.2.6) and tried to do experiments as proof before making these corrections. It's possible that there are errors or inconsistency in my finding, e.g. SP/MP inconsistency. If you disagree, you need to present reproducible counterexamples. Xfs 07:27, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * They do not drop feathers.
 * There is no evidence of they avoiding Ghasts or lava.
 * Their hostility will only increase, never decrease. And the hostility will be saved in NBTTagCompound as "Anger", this is why their hostility keeps the same whether you exit the Nether, exit game, or not. This is confirmed with experiments by myself.
 * There is no drowning under lava. Experiment proof: there is no air marker when you are under lava.
 * They will only become hostile to players, never to anything else. I couldn't reproduce the behavior that they turn hostile to Ghasts.
 * I made a mistake. I forgot the inheritance of Zombie Pigman from superclasses, where there is a characteristic that mobs can actually become hostile toward other mobs which is inherited by Zombie Pigmen. The ineffectiveness of the last experiment might be caused by the damage dealing method of fireballs. To be specific, Zombie Pigmen will turn hostile to fireballs per se if hit by explosion which disappear afterwards, and will turn hostile to Ghasts only if directly hit by fireballs which deal 0 damage. I just found this mistake when rewrting Health/Damage. Xfs 09:53, 28 December 2010 (CST)

Revert by User:Kizzycocoa
I added some new content after undoing revision 36310 so if you want to revert it to the lastest version that I contributed, it should be revision 36349. There is a discussion about this edit war on my talk page. Your opinions are welcome. Xfs 16:34, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw. that's a reason why I reverted it. For one, it's not a zombie sub-class. It's a mob. Sub classes are not in Minecraft. At all.
 * for two, I dislike the term "non peaceful". they are clearly peaceful. As such, they are neutural.
 * for three, you removed history on what zombie pigmen used to do.


 * overall, I see it as a sloppy edit that is harmful and misleading.--Kizzycocoa 10:40, 28 December 2010 (CST)


 * It is implemented as a subclass of zombie which means Zombie Pigman is a kind of Zombie. For example, Burning Spider would be a subclass of Spider, and Cobble Creeper would be a subclass of Creeper, as mentioned as prefixes. Zombie Pigman inherits the walking speed and dealing damage properties of Zombie, so they have the same walking speed, deal the same damage, and so are the other same properties. And they both inherit from the Mob class.


 * I removed the history section because it didn't reflect any difference between now and then, and contained incorrect information.


 * "Non peaceful" means that they only spawn when the difficulty is not on Peacful, not that they are not peaceful.
 * Zombie Pigmen are supposed to be immune to lava and fire, but if they are in lava for long enough, they will be damaged. They do play a burning animation in sunlight, but are unharmed from it.
 * This statement is self-contradictory. How are they damaged by lava if they are immune to lava? And this is not history because it's also exactly the same now.
 * Despite wielding a golden sword, they deal 2.5 damage instead of the normal 2 damage.
 * This is also not history.
 * Zombie Pigmen, prior to the 10th of November 2010 update, would never forgive the player for attacking them. Now after a certain amount of time has passed since an attack, they will become neutral.
 * This information is incorrect as I pointed out in the talk page. I can send you the source code if you want to review them. And this is also not history.
 * A direct hit by a Ghast's fireball will cause a Zombie Pigman to run directly towards the Ghast and attempt to attack it. This behavior has only been observed if the Ghast is touching the ground, usually occuring when the Ghast spawns under a low ceiling. Only the Zombie Pigman hit by the fireball will attack the Ghast - nearby Zombie Pigmen will not change behavior.
 * As the above three statements are either incorrect or not history, i merged this into the previous section.
 * What do you think now? Xfs 17:00, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * subclassed do not exist as of yet. so that means nothing.
 * peacefukl-only spawning also that means nothing. they are still peaceful. slimes spawn on peaceful too. yet, they're aggressive, albeit small ones can't hurt you. but they try.


 * that is true. bobbing up and down, they can get damaged. it is likely a game issue.
 * that can be removed, yes.
 * that is wrong. it is correct. they did used to never forgive the player. also, it IS history.
 * that can maybe stay, but I doubt it is only if the ghast is on the ground.


 * overall, three misinformed edits, one iffy, and one that's acceptable. That's the bottom line.--Kizzycocoa 17:17, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd like to add, about the 'subclass': If anything, they'd be a subclass of pigmen. Miclee 17:33, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It's worth pointing out that Xfs is using the word "subclass" in its programming context, where one object in the game is derived from another one. So to make a Zombie pigman, Notch started with a Zombie, and then changed some of the parameters. Therefore, a Zombie pigman, in programming terms, is a subclass of the Zombie class of objects. A suitable non-programming term might be genre and sub-genre. Kizzycocoa's statement about subclasses not being in Minecraft is wrong, because objects, classes of objects, and subclasses of objects are everywhere in Minecraft. That's why the blocks are basically the same, with just a few differences between them, they're all subclasses of the basic "Block Object". --DannyF1966 17:56, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought writing about spawning restriction of difficulty would be helpful, but I'd also agree if this is omitted. Again, this is not misinformation, this is only omittable information.
 * Subclass is a taxonomic rank, an abstract relational concept to define the relation between Zombie and Zombie Pigman. If you really dislike the wording, how about writing it as "Zombie Pigman is a kind of Zombie"?
 * Zombie Pigmen do suffer falling damage due to bugs in collision algorithm. I've proved this by setting logging break points in the fall function to observe falling distance. They constantly fall a little more than 4 meters, occasionally fall more than 60 meters. As falling damage is something completely irrelevant to lava damage, I can't agree with the original sentence which implies that the damage is related to lava. You're still not incorrect to assert that "bobbing up and down" causes the damage, only less accurate. And is there something about this that was different the past and can be counted as history?
 * Zombie Pigmen still do not forgive the player now. Here is a video proof for Zombie Pigmen being still unforgiving. The reason is explained in the talk page. As they are always unforgiving, there isn't any history to mention.
 * I have confirmed and explained how the Ghast hostility thing works in the talk page.
 * I didn't removed any of the correct information in the history. I just moved the non-historical information to the previous section.
 * At last, I never intend to harm or mislead, or I would not make such logical arguments here. Please stop using that kind of bad-faith assuming words.


 * Could you please state clear your opinion now on these issues so that I can continue contributing to that article on our consensus? Thank you. Xfs 02:29, 29 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I must add, specifying that it is only me removing this information is sort of unfair. others also removed it, for the same reasons as myself.
 * I will confess, while entusiasm is nice, it is hard trudging through each and every point made, hence the late reply of me putting it off. but, here goes.


 * Spawn information is added already. It is in the infobox. For peaceful, yes. however, that should be added as "zombie pigmen do not spawn in peaceful, most likely due to their rebelling abilities to being hurt". lets face it, they are neutral. the definition is in the middle. they do not attack ghasts, nor people, unless provoked.


 * subclasses are just another word for prefix, and I really, REALLY do not want to have that added until prefix mobs are added. we simply CANNOT say "they are a subclass of zombie, and a prefix of pigmen". While we all respect the coding behind the game, to the player, it means nothing. I just think subclasses? should not be mentioned. prefixes however should, but only when released. otherwise, the article will confuse the hell out of the player.
 * on a side note, using subclass terms, you could say zombies and skeletons are prefix's of the human mobs, as are pigmen and zombie pigmen.


 * that paragraph is not about fall damage. it is about lava. if a zombie chooses to swim, the bobbing up and down makes them re-enter the lava. occasionally, this causes them to be damaged. it's likely a bug, but it happens. I saw three pigmen die from this bug myself.


 * if you read the blog, you will have seen Notch made the zombie pigmen forgive. that's pretty much the end to that matter completely.


 * ghast hostility can be added, however, I beg there be more research done. I highly doubt that it's only if Ghasts touch the floor, that they are attacked.


 * from the edit I saw, it was removed. this is due to the fact you mistook the zombie pigmen being unforgiving.


 * I did not mean to do so. I was merely stating the fact about the edit. it does harm the page, readability wise, as well as what type of mob they are, and the lava implications.


 * on a final note, I must say, most of your edit should not be re-added. some coding terms will only confuse the player. the lava "correction" is incorrect. the unforgivefulness is wrong. ghast-zombie pigmen, eh, I would like more research done. I doubt the variables with "on the ground" are 100% correct. and finally, the history error was related to the unforgivefulness.


 * so, that's what I think. the edit for zombie pigmen-ghast related damage should be added but further researched. The rest is either wrong, needs to be added with the addition of prefix mobs, or is just confusing to readers.--Kizzycocoa 15:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Subclass is only a word to describe the relation between Zombies and Zombie Pigmen. Equivelent information is conveyed with words like "a kind of". I have no perference on either choices.


 * The damage taken by Pigmen is actually falling damage and not lava damage. Thus my correction about lava is not incorrect.


 * You have committed a logical fallacy of argument from authority that you assert that Pigmen forgive now by simply citing Notch's statement as fact without providing any proof. And I have provided video proof on them being unforgiving.


 * There can't be more research done about Ghast hotility. I have shown and explained 100 percent of the code of the entire machanism.

Xfs 15:40, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * however, you could argue that they are a subclass of pigmen, who are a subclass of humans, thus removing zombies completely. I personally think coding terms should not be on the wiki, especially with prefix's incoming. it will only confuse the reader. we're a wiki for minecraft, not a development wiki for minecraft :S


 * that is incorrect. they cannot take "falling damage" from simply bobbing up and down in lava. that is just, I can't begin to explain how wrong that is. it's like taking falling damage from swimming in water. it makes no sense.


 * that video proves nothing, other than forgiveness is unrelated to Portals. what notch said is, they forgive -eventually-. he never said anything about portals. you have merely misread what notch has said.


 * and, if it is 100% accurate, then fine. add it. but I feel that it's worded in an odd way, and the "only on the floor" thing is incorrect, but, if it's 100% right, add it by all means.--Kizzycocoa 16:16, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Please don't misread my opinion. What I said is I don't insist on using the word "subclass", I only want to convey the information of the relationship between Zombie Pigmen and Zombies.


 * How can you assert that is incorrect when you can't explain it and I have explained it? ("Zombie Pigmen do suffer falling damage due to bugs in collision algorithm..." in previous replies)


 * You made a fallacious conclusion as I pointed out (argument from authority). Please correct your argument with logic. Besides the video proof, I have code analysis in.


 * Please read the process in . "only on the floow" is incorrect indeed. Xfs 16:24, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * well, we can link to zombies and pigmen in the article, but honestly, I think it should stay as it is. after all, this is a general use wiki.


 * because, how can an entity suffer "fall" damage, from bobbing up and down in a deep lake? it sounds absolutely ridiculous to even consider, coding-wise or logic-wise. I'm sorry, but it does. zombies aren't hurt from bobbing up and down in water. It's to do with lava, and as such, it hints at imperfections to the immunity code.


 * well, if it's in the code, then I guess, sure. mention it. however, mention that notch attempted to fix it as well.


 * well, the article said "only on the floor", which is why that was removed. if that part is removed, and the wording is made more user-friendly, go ahead, add it. --Kizzycocoa 16:32, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * It's good to see we are gradually approaching to a consensus. As per your puzzlement about the falling damage, I have listed all possible fire/lava damage locations and proved they can't contribute to the damage taken by Pigmen in lava. And I have observed falling distance greather than 4 which causes falling damage when Pigmen are in lava by setting logging break points in the fall function to observe falling distance. I will provide bug report about this issue later as it's quite difficult to find the problem in a widely referenced function. Xfs 16:43, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * And I have another issue. Please look at . What do you think? Xfs 16:48, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * ok, there is a zombie pigman in the middle of a deep lava lake. just bobbing. does that cause falling damage at all, considering it's deep, and he is just bobbing there?
 * also, I think this time, zombie pigman should be used.--Kizzycocoa 16:53, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm stilling looking for the bug. And it's also ok to me to ignore the naming by whom adapted and implemented Zombie Pigman in Minecraft, Notch. Xfs 16:58, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * in this case, yes. to call it a "zombie pig" is simply not right. I can't really say we should move it, as it makes no sense.--Kizzycocoa 17:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In this case, yes. Notch calling it a zombie pig is simply not right. And it makes no sense for him to name a mob adapted and implemented by himself in his game. And here is the answer to your puzzlement about falling damage. Xfs 17:27, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * That's..... so weird. So fall distance is accumulated in lava, but not in water? I suppose not figuring it out until now makes sense, since the lava is doing a lot of damage already (normally to the player). --JonTheMon 18:00, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * ok, so, lava makes it act as if they are forever falling, until the value like, makes it too high, then they get hurt? Is this applicable for when they first enter lava? can it happen then too?
 * anyway, dumb it down a few levels, and sure. I'd be happy for that to go in. It explains why nothing happened with ghasts and lava as well. well, not reportedly. anyway, yeah. the ghast attacking and lava bug can be added. but the rest cannot.--Kizzycocoa 18:14, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You will also die immediately if you fall into lava from a place too high. Ghasts won't fall at all, their fall contains nothing. And please don't rule over qualified user contribution only based on your own opinion as that's an abuse of administrator privilege to gain unfair advantage in argument. I think our arguments should have equal status before conclusions can be drawn from logical argument regardless of whether your are an administrator or not. You are not inherently always right just because you're an administrator, as three of your claims have been proved false by me. Xfs 18:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not an admin.
 * Checkmate. XD


 * still, there has never been any research into lava immune creatures. so, we all did not know *shrugs*.
 * even admins aren't right all the time. and users.--Kizzycocoa 18:48, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * You were one, and you're pending now, according to yourself. I felt uneasy about the words "the rest cannon" as if we were not equal and I were being ruled by someone. As you can see, I spent almost 100 more times effort to argue with you for writing just several sentences when you wouldn't take little effort to present your own logical proof to refute my argument or think about whether you were actually right. And I'm not going to edit this article for now because there is someone even more irrational than you. It should be a little right for me to complain on this issue after wasting two days arguing on this. Xfs 19:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Stepping back from conflict between users (which is irrelevant to what the article should contain), what I see is: they don't drop feathers, they don't currently seem to forgive (can be considered a bug), they can die due to falling damage (including dieing in lava due to the way it works in regards to falling damage -- which I would probably classify as a bug), and they can become hostile to ghasts when hit by a fireball. Those are the facts that should be reflected on the article page. --Lordebon 18:52, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems good to me. --JonTheMon 19:00, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * yes. I do wish to add, I do not want to appear irrational. but, several of those edits had no fact, until that argument. and, Xfs, no offence, but I didn't reply so much because my thoughts were on common logic. you cannot get fall damage in lava, and the ghast on the floor thing seemed wrong, which you said it was. the only real thing here is an ammendment to the ghast thing which you proved me right, and digging into lava code to find an anomaly.


 * I also wish to add, Miclee is the "creator" of zombie pigmen. it is natural they do not want the page based on their creation to have complex codespeak. because some of your edit was codespeak, of which would be bad to add in such language.--Kizzycocoa 19:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)