Talk:Redstone circuits/Archive 1

Page Lock?
Hold the phone. Why did this page get locked? I try to go in to fix some cross-linking, and I find I can't edit. Has there been vandalism recently (I thought the naming controversy was good and dead). --Allus 20:32, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * it is still locked since that whole aspergite thing. --Kizzycocoa 21:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Back now :) --Allus 10:42, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Formatting

 * I put forth a suggestion that all the images should be like the XOR gate, I find it totally easy to understand with the top down view, and I think the other examples would benefit from a likened image. It also helps if all the images are the same style, and I find the style of the XOR gate and the RS NOR Latch images present the necessary information in an easier to understand method then the other images on the page do.--99.159.20.67 12:24, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I just like screenshots better because they "proofs" that the circuits works. (The topdown torch could also be misunderstood in the topdown view images) And did you remove the RS NAND by accident? --Samonite 15:28, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I added a master diagram containing most of the basic logic gates I could think of in the top down perspective, and gridded to show total area. It's under the "Gate Logic" header and spaced accordingly. Image is titled [[Media:StandardLogicGates.png|Standard Logic Gates]]. --Mwr247 21:20, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That diagram is awesome! But there is no such thing as a "RS XOR Latch". Its called "RS NOR Latch" :P You also have to change that circuit to the updated version I uploaded. It fix a serious bug in the latch(A signal was sent back to the inputs). --Samonite 21:34, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Bah, I wasn't thinking when I resized the text, accidentally typed it out wrong since it was right after the XOR's haha... I'll get that fixed, and update the layout to the working version as well. --Mwr247 21:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You might also want to change the switches to arrows(green) and add output arrows(red). You also need letters of the different in/output of the latches(I suggest an in/output arrow with the letter in it). --Samonite 21:42, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I just discovered another small error. Clocks aren't timers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock_signal). Therefore they should simply be called "XX-Clock" and not "XX-Clock Timer". I'll also rename the "Clocks" section to "Clock generators".--Samonite 21:59, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, I've fixed the XOR-NOR typo, updated RS NOR Latch diagram, removed "timer" from the clock, added green and blue colors for output and inverse output, and updated the legend to reflect this. Thanks for your help :) Regarding the input image: the switch implies any sort of input (as it says in the legend), be it wire or actual switch of some sort, and makes for a nice visual cue. Regarding lettering: I feel this overcomplicates the purpose of the diagram, which was to demonstrate how to construct the gates. While I agree with the indication of outputs and inverse outputs, they can simply construct the gates themselves to figure out which switch triggers what output, or refer to the alternative demo image in it's respective section of the article. If you still insist I'll do it though, since it's good either way I suppose. --Mwr247 22:39, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it should be possible to replace every input-switch with a wire. That is not possible with the OR gate (and the In/output gate but is that gate even necessary?). The OR gate in the article will work(thats also why I use wires as in/output in all images). I'll update the AND, NAND and RS NAND Latch today. Should I also add the XNOR? I don't think we should add NOT versions of the "advanced" gates. --Samonite 11:33, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The input/output was mostly filler, so it can go away. That's one reason I had reconsidered the input wires, being that wires and switches on certain gates operate in a different manner, so I suppose when I have the time I'll get around to changing for that as well. As to the gates, you made a new image of the RS NAND, but you took out the inverter at the end on the new diagram, and thus it's not a true RS NAND (when both are in the off state, the output is off in your model, when it should be on). You need to readd the inverters for it to work right. Finally, I agree that advanced gates do not need images for their inverse counterparts. --Mwr247 15:20, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Didn't even really test the circuit. Just couldn't see the purpose the inverters and removed them :P I'll upload a new version soon. --Samonite 18:15, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Even-Clock

 * Not really a huge deal, but if you change the end-nodes on the clock, they can have an even number: http://i.imgur.com/WJ2WI.png --Chariot 05:23, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Please post a better picture of the clock because I don't believe in even-number clocks. Also, should delays be added to the wiki? A delay is row of an even-number of inverters which delays the signal. --Samonite 11:17, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's a picture of the other end, I don't know what else you need, because the nodes inside are the same as the other clock layout. http://imgur.com/fLy9E.png I can't get the whole thing in one screen (it's a 10 second timer and it has 104 nodes), so I hope you can figure it out with this, it's really quite simple. Additionally, I'd like to add information about how many nodes are needed for x amount of time, but I'm unsure how to accurately measure it. For all I know, my ten second timer could be a 10.3 second timer. --Chariot 18:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I hadn't realized both ends were layed out differently, so the first picture was pretty unclear, but I can assure you it does work.--Chariot 18:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Even-number clocks rapidly reach a stable state, with half the torches ON and the other half OFF. Peewee223 17:26, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Even-clocks do not pulse. As Peewee said, you will get half on and half off.  If it works as you insist it does, Chariot, then this is due to a bug in minecraft, and not an error on this page; I encourage you to be sure that nothing else is going on to cause the pulse.  This is because the pulsing is caused by using the output of a device that inverts the input, as the input to that very device.  So called "Even-clocks" do not invert the input, as an even number of not gates produce the same output as they receive as input, so this does not occur.  Also of note is that the speed at which the pulsing occurs is a function of the delay mechanic that is discussed in another section.  What "Even-clocks" ARE is a memory cell, since they can stabilize in one of two stats, and given particular input, the designer can set which one of these stats the system will have--that is, the R S NOR latch is identical to a "2-clock" with the appropriate inputs to flop it's state.98.111.90.162 23:44, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * While I agree that even clocks are possible I think it's best to keep the page as it is, and pretend they don't. They require more hastle to set up (for the ones I've seen) as you've got to bypass the default state which will represent memory like Peewee223 and the last responder suggest. However if for some reason you'd like to set one up just wire two adjacent torches (http://imgur.com/E5H3i.gif) to a switch/pressure pad and send a signal till the circuit is at a stable point then with the removal of the signal the circuit will pulse with two torches acting as one (the pair of torches acting as one changes in a leapfrog fashion every frame). Signal generated when lever turns off: http://imgur.com/0bQ2S.gif, http://imgur.com/rSMOn.gif, http://imgur.com/zpd3H.gif. --CALLUZUK 20:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

More Formatting

 * Should the pictures of the gates be in right or the left side? --Samonite 15:31, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * They should be balanced out. Until enough combinations exist and we get a table set up (which I doubt will happen soon), most should be on the right.  The RS content should have left-based images. --Arlnet 16:32, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Delay/Nomenclature

 * Should something be mentioned about it actually taking time for the "electricity" to travel through wires, this can cause desynchronization in more complex structures, such as a JK flip flop or a seven segmented display.--Zaneo 18:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought it was just my client lagging behind, if this is legitimately the case then a bolded (or highlighted in some other fashion) text somewhere before the gate section begins should mention this. --Arlnet 18:24, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think this kind of information should be mentioned together with Clocks. (And instead of saying "electricity" I like to use the word signal) --Samonite 18:29, 7 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it might be reasonable to change any references of 'electricity' to 'magic', considering that according to notch, that's exacly what it is, not electricty, magic. (I'm a bit too busy at the moment to find the exact postings, if anyone has them off hand, would they mind quoting them here?)--155.43.28.48 18:33, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Lifted from another page.


 * A2:16:12  it is NOT copper, it is NOT thermite
 * A2:16:27  i can confirm it's magic
 * A2:16:35  Hey Notch, will we get electricity-operated trapdoors/hatches and arrow/object shooting blocks?
 * A2:16:37  and I haven't seen anyone say that the ore glows in the dark when you hit it
 * A2:16:50 Notch, it's been noted, actually.
 * A2:16:59  oh great. =)
 * A2:17:05  there will not be electricity
 * A2:17:27 Notch, what you've created is, by all discernable definition, electricity.
 * A2:17:54  electricity most certainly do not have free not gates. ;)
 * Although both are apperntly from IRC, so I have no idea if there would be any records of that for reference.


 * The quote from 155.43.28.48:
 * I think the Redstone Dust (which is, and always has been[*] the official name for the red stuff) fits fairly well with the pseudo fantasy theme of Minecraft, and it will certainly have more uses in the future, mainly for alchemy and possibly other forms of magic.
 * Yes he does mention magic, however "other forms of magic" was VERY likely to be referencing "alchemy" and not the redstone itself. Besides, pressure plates and buttons and levers do not sound like magical items by any means. --Arlnet 18:38, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that we should use the term "electricity", even if that isn't what it truly is, just because it probably makes it less confusing for first-time readers. Maybe make a note that while it isn't actually electricity, it acts basically like it for all intensive purposes. Xymostech 04:13, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Xymostech, we should call it "electricity" in the article, but have some mention somewhere, say the beginning, that it uses a magical current, not electricity. Also, it doesn't exactly act like electricity, you don't have to ground the magical current or stop it from traveling into other "input" circuits. --68.1.112.116 12:59, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Does repeater deserve it's own picture/sub heading? --Zaneo 21:55, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by a "repeater"? Xymostech 04:13, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Repeater is two not gates in a row, used to extend how far a signal can pass along the powder. --Zaneo 04:15, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I definitely think that this deserves its own section. Actually, I think that things that aren't actually logic gates (such as clocks, and this) deserve to be in a separate section, because they are very integral to Redstone circuits, but don't fall under the traditional "logic gate" title. Sound reasonable? Xymostech 05:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. What should the section be named? --Samonite 18:15, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

RS NAND Concern
I'm not sure if its broken or if the new update did anything, but the Logic Gate RS NAND Latch doesnt work properly. I made this to test it out and on it -Q is on but Q is not on, even though R and S are both on. The master switch is there only to save time. And from what I understand from the explanation, -Q and Q should both on. Is there a fix to it? --Lecount 21:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You are wrong. It works just fine. When both inputs are OFF the outputs is ON :P Test it yourself here:  --Samonite 22:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

XOR Concern
I made an exclusive OR (XOR) gate (though I could've used an AND here, I just like exclusive OR) and where the levers go instead I put down redstone to lead it to lever. well the redstone went from the back (lever in diagram) then two tiles to the right then down to my lever, but the torch would stay lit no matter what I did, only until I removed the two redstone connected to the block (one off the back and the one diagonal) did it work again so it seems like having an active redstone line diagonal of a block (at least one with a torch on top and a torch on one face) disables the lever completely as the other lever will still trip the switch. Not sure if this is supposed to happen or if it's known it happens, but it's not on the page. I'm also not sure if it was fixed later and somehow retained in my client. --Enzer 08:23, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Truth Tables
Should there maybe be a section with truth tables (a table showing the input(s) versus the outputs) for the logic gates? or maybe just have small ones by the descriptions? I'm sure some of us don't know how they work. I get a bit tired of switching between this page (to see how they're made) and Wikipedia (to see if I have the correct gate) myself. --The qwert 03:49, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * A small truth table somewhere in their description would be nice.--Samonite 22:48, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Added truth tables. Someone double check them, please. --97.127.153.56 13:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Nice :D I fixed the RS NOR Latch.. I know its the "forbidden state" but thats how it works. --Samonite 14:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I didn't remember how that worked and I couldn't pull up Minecraft to test it out (I died and my base is missing). Thanks! --97.127.153.56 15:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Interesting page I have created
I have just created the page "Contraptions" where everybody could place their own creation(s) with the redstone, it can be found here. Hope you all apreciate.
 * It seems to have been turned into a Redirect link back to Redstone circuits. I'd love to see a contraptions page, though, showing off what has been done, not simply an explanation of the tools available.  You cant call a kid a carpenter if he just looks at his tools and says "wat". I might edit it later and give examples such as locks, wire-specific traps, and other machines, but I have recently been busy with other stuff (Touhou Project, Cave story :-) though. --Arlnet 18:48, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I support this whole heartedly, except it should include other contraptions, like auto cobblestone makers and mob collector/killers. EDIT: I've written up a page, and ironically could not find anything wired, so I've put the other ones I know in. Megadog 23:21, 14 September 2010 (CDT)
 * I'd love a place to share non-basic redstone circuitry with others. the basics are great but its daunting to make advanced machines. my first major project i designed was a binary counter with a clock input that can be chained together to count as high as you want to, but i only got to 3 bits due to lack of redstone (so it could count to 2^3-1 = 7). --Cert 14:02, 16 October 2010 (CDT)
 * The best place for a Contraptions page would be in the Tutorials section. DannyF1966 00:21, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Jk Flip Flop
You do realise a Jk has Q and Q! as well as a clock, then J and K. The posted is missing the clock at the very least. --Zaneo 12:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I know that JK's have an inverse Q but to get it you could just add an inverter to the Q. The "real" inversed Q in the RS Latch was too hard to get. Should I extend the circuit to include the inverse Q? I don't understand the part about the clock. Can you explain that one? (Unclocked JK's exist if it was that you where referring to)--Samonite 22:45, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I know unclocked JKs exist, i thought that clocked was more common, maybe make a note that this is an unclocked one? --Zaneo 02:16, 28 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe. They are actually quite easy to make clocked. Just add an AND gate to the input. Then attach a clock to one of the inputs of the AND gate. You can do the same thing with the JK. Just use two ANDs.--Samonite 15:56, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Diagrams
Regarding: "This page contains MCRedstoneSim diagrams for compactness and clarity of design." - I do not find those clear at all. After staring at the key for quite a while and even playing with the MCRedstoneSim simulator I still don't understand all of the icons. Could someone include screenshot of what each icon is supposed to represent, or can we switch to something easier to read? This, on the other hand, took a second but was otherwise easy and useful: http://minecraftwiki.net/wiki/File:StandardLogicGates.png


 * They are kind of confusing, but I think if i was actually in game and looking more at the guide I could figure it out. Maybe we could reupload screenshots of the gates.Toadbert
 * I second this. --Andrew12 23:25, 30 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, I agree. The new diagrams are extremely difficult to read.  The in-game screenshots were far more helpful.  --Declare variables, not war. 03:16, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

the diagram key would be easier to understand if it used better colors to signify if something is above a block, below, etc. the very slight grey coloring is hard to distinguish between white/yellow--Cert 18:53, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Long term clock?
Could anybody explain to me, how could be latch used together with a pulsar to create a long term clock? I want to create something with a 15 second delay...
 * Add as many t-flip flops to the end to make it as slow as you would like
 * On a related note, can anyone make the C version of the T-flip flip work?


 * i would not advise using a pulsar as clock. it switches too fast for torches to recognize.
 * i just built the 'c' t flip flop design in an effort to save space, and when the input is on it just acts like a clock and burns out randomly. --Cert 18:47, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Taken to its Logical Conclusion
A 16-bit computer designed for Minecraft by theinternetftw. RPS article link with Youtube video. --JellyfishGreen 12:55, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Gif files on main page
Hi, this is the first time I've contributed to a wiki, apologies if I'm doing anything wrong. I wanted to point out that the gif files for the redstone circuits aren't animating on the main page, and it's not obvious just from looking at the gif that some of the circuits are two or three blocks high. I was looking at the XOR circuits in particular. If someone tries to build one of the circuits in mcredstonesim just by looking at the gif on the main page, it may take them a while to figure out where they're going wrong. DannyF1966
 * This happened to me.
 * Andrew12 23:24, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I updated the page to show that some of the gifs are animated. DannyF1966
 * Gifs on main page are ok now, so removed my notifications. DannyF1966 19:26, 16 October 2010 (CDT)

Max distance runs
I've done some experiments and found that the farthest you can get from a redstone circuit is 17.5 chunks (281 blocks). In other words, if a clock generator is placed in chunk #1, as soon as you cross the midway point of the 17th chunk it will cease operating. Important to note that it will not begin operating again until you are within 10 chunks (160 blocks). I have only tested this in one direction (North/South) so I'm not sure if a diagonal makes any difference - probably doesn't. That makes the largest redstone circuit design effectively 17x17 chunks (272x272x126). Smidge204 22:00, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

XNOR A not working
I've successfully built all the other gate types, but XNOR style A isn't working for me. It's behaving like AND instead of XNOR. Can someone confirm that the gate diagram is correct? --TaviRider 19:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I cannot manage to reproduce any of the XNOR gates. Do any of them work? --bazzaNZ

Missing Logic Gate (For Completeness)
The truth tables made me notice the list of gates is incomplete. Some are on the list or are input-switched duplicates of those on the list: nor; not a; not b; xor; nand; and; xnor; A implies B; B implies A; or. Some are trivial: always off; b; a; always on. That leaves two possibilities (one and it's input-switched version): b and not a, a and not b. I know it's a simple gate, but it should be included for completeness; It's basically just invert one input, join inputs, invert if anyone can put together a diagram (or an 'and' gate with one input inverter removed).

Clock circuits?
They're working for me, but glitch out after a couple of cycles. I built one with 3 inverters, and it works at first, but then it glitches and stops working. Wolfos

Never mind, got them to work, the reason was that the framerate was too high, just enable "limit framerate". Wolfos

Updates on the gates?
There are more size/clock efficient gates out right now. Why are they not being updated? I just updated the VincentLaw flipflop because I kept referencing every time. Also more people should know about it if they are getting into these gates.


 * Can you direct me to a place with information about that? Like, what is it supposed to do? I cannot find any documentation about a "VincentLaw flip flop". I temporarily removed it, due to the bad formatting it currently has.


 * Also, sign your posts with ~ . Thanks! Riking 23:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * More likely than not it's because nobody has put in the effort to make another image with the gate as well as adding a new section. If you provide a source I'm sure we can hold someone at knife-point until they make one lol. --Moxxy 03:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there a convention requiring that new versions of a gate be added to the existing image? And are animated GIFs required? I find them annoying and difficult to read (I often end up taking screenshots of each frame and referencing them individually). I want to add some more compact gate designs to the D and T flip-flop sections, but one is a 1x6x6 side view of a vertical design and the other is a two panel image (much like the section on the adders, but not nearly that huge). - Tallinu 07:50, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Clock confusion
I think it would be great if the creators of clocks show how each tick corresponds to a real-life second. Presumably there is some relation? Sorry if this is a dumb question -- I'm new to redstone beyond simple logic and circuit hiding. PlasticineGuy 02:59, 1 November 2010 (CDT)
 * This varies depending on your framerate. From the "Redstone Facts" section: "If you get upwards of 100 FPS while playing Minecraft, a tick should equal about 1/16 of a second." The clock signal progresses around the loop by one torch per tick. The pulse width and period of the clock - the time it takes for any given torch in the clock to turn on or off, and then return to the prior state, respectively - is measured in ticks. - Tallinu 07:57, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

XOR Circuit Diagrams
I've constructed each of the diagrammed XOR circuits and can only get about half of them to work. I believe that they work when built properly, but I just can't understand the diagrams for B, D, and G. I really need a reverse-direction output for a situation in my game, but I can't get B to work for the life of me. Can someone post screenshots of a working circuit of type B? -- Ignirtoq 03:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have the same problem with D. You can look at the circuit diagram and immediately see that it will do nothing since the inputs aren't wired to anything. I'm working to figure out what the heck the author is thinking, but I'm not holding out much hope. .parliament 23:37, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The D design chart indicates that D is used with levers, and the other ones are multi-level, so click on the picture to view the animation --Cert 03:09, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Water and lava
I am sure water and lava aren't affected by redstone state itself, but because the redstone block state changed, it starts flow recalculation. Nickguletskii 10:44, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh yeah, that's the point... 04:45, 7 November 2010 (CST)

Redstone Torch decay?
I have noticed while working with redstone circuits that redstone torches cease working correctly after they have been switched back and forth a few times (at least when working with plates/buttons, not levers), effectively disabling any machineries that contain inverters. What's the deal with that? --BlueLegion 08:52, 10 November 2010 (CST)


 * Are you doing this in SMP? if so, there is still some issues. --Fishrock123 08:57, 10 November 2010 (CST)
 * Nope, single player. Maybe its only on one savegame, im gonna try it on another one. --BlueLegion 19:20, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Tested it and the redstone torches are "glitched" on other saves too. After a couple of times the state has been switched, it makes an extinguishing sound (like when water hits lava) and the torch wont work for a few more times switching the state of the redstone circuit. With a lever, this bug will occur pretty fast, but it will fix itself after a few more times switching. With a button it takes longer until the torch gliches, but i have not yet "unglitched" it by switching it more. --BlueLegion 19:38, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Just sounds like you are switching them too fast and they are burning out --Cert 14:53, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you tried this with "Limit Framerate" ON in Game Options? Possibly a framerate thing? --JellyfishGreen 10:32, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

repeater as a capacitor/backflow preventer with latches
I am not sure of the exact terminology, but I havent seen anything mentioned that repeaters should be used with 'memory cells' (like RS NOR latches) to prevent the wire into the latch from becoming always on... which is a problem if that wire runs to other gates. Anyone understand what I mean? --Cert 09:13, 26 November 2010 (CST)
 * Yeah, but I think thats common sense. Metalhannes 13:53, 26 November 2010 (CST)


 * In electronics the term is a 'diode'.  Should be noted that[in case you havent read the whole article], many of the designs note whether they 'compromise' the inputs. -- prettycoolguy  (talk) 20:38, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that you can take an output wire directly off the torch for isolated output, or an input wire straight to the block for isolated input. NOR latch design A shows this, at least in the diagram.