Talk:Cave Spider

I didn't remove the link, I moved it to a reference. Cool12309(T 04:02, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I know. I said that later. Thanks for helping me get this page running. Know how to get it onto the mobs reference bar?
 * Spoke too late :P Please sign your posts with ~ Cool12309(T 04:06, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Merge?
Shouldn't this thread be merged with Spider, kinda like the electrocreeper? At least, when it comes out.


 * no, because unlike the charged creepers the blue spider isnt a form of the spider, they are different mobs, spiders dont turn into blue spiders.--Higbey 14:33, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Deletion Discussion and Official proof for page
Does anybody have a older version of this page, because some jerk just completely deleted it without checking out ANYTHING that's been said about this. Quatroking4 is his name.
 * Excuse me, sir, this "idiot" is the wiki head admin, and I myself marked it to be deleted. This also means it's not coming back before there is any official proof. And the reason of deletition was obvious: no official proof. Also, sign your comments. No offence meant, you should read the wiki rules next time. [[Image:TK.gif]]   | TheKax |   Talk   15:17, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

My problem is that Protato has announced that he was one of the four people to be chosen to work at Mojang's PAX booth on saturday, and has already confirmed plenty of things and gotten screenshots of almost everything he's confirmed. Even Notch, apparently has confirmed the monster and talked about it when he encountered it in a mine shaft. MyCraftDev 15:23, 28 August 2011 (UTC)MyCraftDev(T|C) 08:22, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you have proof from Notch, send us a link. For obvious reasons, we cannot consider anyone else than Mojang staff official sources. This wiki would be full of speculation and hoaxes if we added everything claimed by unknown people. [[Image:TK.gif]]  | TheKax |   Talk   15:26, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, I don't know how to get a link to something I didn't record, but I tweeted Notch about this so I hope he gets back sometime soon. MyCraftDev 15:23, 28 August 2011


 * I agree with MyCraftDev, the page should be recovered. First of all the page was very recently created (last night) and the "head admin" should have gave it a chance for people to add more content/proof onto the page instead of almost instantly wiping it out. It would have been best to wait at least 3-7 days for more evidence to show up before deleting it. Shockman25 16:25, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I believe him too, I looked at the picture, unfortunatly now youve deleted it, but I looked at it and its not the same skin, it looks different, not just tinted, I find it annoying how you dont accept info straight from PAX. if Notch talked about it to someone who worked at the Mojang booth then technically they are giving information from Mojang staff.--Higbey 16:34, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The issue with a source like this is that it is potentially fraudulent; the guy claims it's from PAX, sure, but that's no guarantee that it is. Find another source (an official one from the Mojang staff is best), or it's not worth mentioning. I've also tweeted Notch about this, so hopefully we can have some kind of clarity on this. Until them, I'm not really sure that I buy it. Siphida 16:46, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, in the original picture, if you look at the bottom, you can clearly see the experience and food bars, so this is not just some mod, and, someone named "whatthenether" claims that he really was at PAX watching a demo of 1.8, and another thing, if you look closely at the illuminated blocks, you can see a "warmer" lighting, as Notch said, AND the spider is clearly not black, it should be obvious, AND he has more pictures of PAX than just this one, so he definitely was attending PAX.

Original picture here: http://twitpic.com/6cbsul Shockman25 16:56, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

protato was staff at Mojangs booth at PAX, he was told about this by notch himself, if he worked at the booth technically that means he was Mojang staff.--Higbey 17:02, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I also vote Yes to restore this page and give it a bit of time for proof. Even if not so, keep it up until Beta 1.8 comes out. If Blue Spiders are not added then, then we will know this page is false and can then be deleted. Cool12309(T 18:04, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Pretty there's a huge amount of evidence here that points to this being real, so I hope this page will get back up soon. It's kind of like how the dragon page is still up, seeing as there's no info on how it could possibly work and has even been advised against by jeb, yet is still a page. Notch has mentioned it a couple times, never once confirming it would be in-game, and yet this has a screenshot, apparently confirmation from Notch himself and consistent info on how it would work. MyCraftDev 15:23, 28 August 2011
 * Yeah, I don't know why this was removed. The source is reliable.  --Warlock 18:56, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Back up, now everyone hurry up get some confirmed facts to put on. Wow look at all those needed citations, let me go fix those. Okay I fixed them now, whatever I couldn't find links to I just removed, please remember that it was confirmed that protato is PAX staff, so don't flame for "not using reliable sources."Shockman25 20:44, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Quit deleteing the page, right now it's completely confirmed Shockman25 22:48, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

QUIT FRICKIN DELETING THE PAGE, KIZZYCOCOA. IT'S COMPLETELY CONFIRMED. MyCraftDev

Oh, and whoever made the dragon page should be banned as well, as that has never been confirmed, has less info, and has no screenshots. Bring this back. MyCraftDev


 * Not to fan the flames, but there's a dragon page because Notch said he was going to add them several times and gave a fair bit of info on how they'd fit into the game. Blue Spiders, on the other hand, have not been discussed by Notch or Jeb and only by a guy who claims to be working the Mojang stand. Even if that's true he's not employed by Mojang; he's an employee of PAX. No article on this Wiki worth its salt is sourced from anything less than information from Notch, Jeb or another employee of Mojang. That's it. Siphida 23:22, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry guys, I have the entire page saved on notepad. When kizzy is ready to accept blue spiders I will put it back up. Shockman25 23:10, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I really wouldn't want to have to restart the entire page just because Kizzycocoa doesn't want to accept anything until Notch sticks a note saying its confirmed up his/her nose. Oh,and I have the render saved as a file.MyCraftDev


 * Lets clarify this up:


 * 1. We do not have enough proof. Two blurry pics from unofficial source is not enough.


 * 2. Recreating the same page three times over and over again, with no new evidence after an admin has deleted it for a good reason can be considered vandalism and blocking user accounts for set periods of time is the common punishment for this. This wiki is an "oligarchy" (ask quatro :P), where the admins word is the guideline. This way the order is kept up. If you want to question the admins decision, you need provide with good proof of why you do it. As if you were going to win a trial by saying: "I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I didn't do it." Instead, say: "I didn't do it. I wasn't there. This person can prove it". Get it?


 * Get it? [[Image:TK.gif]]  | TheKax |   Talk   14:17, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Another Source
"Spiders are already a nuisance in the world of Minecraft, but now they poison their prey. The resulting moments of panic as you watch your life tick away even after their death are sure to make exploring all the more treacherous. "

It's not clear from that article if this is indeed a seperate mob or if *all* spiders will poison (you'd think that would be mentioned elsewhere though), but clearly the majority of this page's info was correct. --Warlock 23:02, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds like the Blue Spider to me, Kizzy it's confirmed, I don't know why you refuse to accept that, that's very low of you. Shockman25 23:14, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I think this is indeed referring to a seperate mob. Went back and found the live stream notch did - around the 8:20 mark he is attacked by a spider. While the video quality isn't great, his health doesn't seem to change yellow or drain. So I'm going with "blue spiders" being a seperate mob. Gonna see if I can find any more examples of being attacked by spiders with maybe better video quality :) --Warlock 23:16, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Notch never said he was going to add them, he mentioned them a couple times with absolutely no info or even thoughts on how they'd work aside from possibly being mounts, which has since been disconfirmed by jeb, along with the fact that they were going to be added. On the other hand, THIS has numerous mentions by many trusted sources, two screenshots, and info on how they work and where they would spawn. MyCraftDev
 * If there were articles they should have been sourced. Where are they? Siphida 23:36, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * They also appear to be mentioned in Warlocks fantastic resource. As he said, "Spiders are already a nuisance in the world of Minecraft, but now they poison their prey." Since IGN is a very trustworth resource, and how we have so much other references, I believe that we have enough evidence to conclude that blue spiders are real. Shockman25 23:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

If you look you might see that the page has been deleted. That's why everyone is having a discussion right here. MyCraftDev

Found new evidence, at one point during the video a guy puts his finger on the camera lens and Notch says 'Here is the new spider'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X33dxpD4kk0&feature MyCraftDev


 * He says "here is the new brightness slider, ....(mumble mumble muffled voice).... new slider." (at 6:30)--HexZyle 14:19, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

---

Compiled Evidence
So here is all of our evidence:

1. Screenshots by PAX staff

2. Reference of Blue Spiders on IGN:

"Spiders are already a nuisance in the world of Minecraft, but now they poison their prey."

3. 1.8 Video :

Here is a Video with the blue spider is seen.

"Notch says 'Here is the new spider'" (MYCraftDev)

Notch just confirmed Blue Spiders!!

This is definitely enough evidence to bring the page back up, and I will make sure Kizzy sees this.

I've decided to put it back up now that we have gathered all of the evidence.

Shockman25 00:18, 29 August 2011 (UTC) ---


 * Let's be realistic about this. Debunking the evidence:


 * 1. The first image shows what seems like a normal spider. The quality is too low and the colors too distorted to see if it's really blue. The second shows a spawner covered in cobweb. This could be just a normal spider spawner or any spawner.


 * 2. You debunked that yourself. "Now they poison their prey." Sounds like the original spider was edited.


 * 3. "New spider" could mean edited, new version, of the old spider, replacing the old spider.


 * "Notch just confirmed Blue Spiders!!", outright lie, no proof present.


 * This is not enough evidence. [[Image:TK.gif]]  | TheKax |   Talk   14:07, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

But then you remember that Notch finds many spiders over the course of the demo video and not one of them poisons him. Notch was actually way more focused on running around randomly then showcasing new features. Heck, nobody even found a silverfish throughout the entire fricking demo and it has a page even less detailed than this. If you're using the 'Notch hasn't confirmed the pictures taken from an android phone during the 1.8 demo by somebody who has footage of being at PAX and confirmation from Notch of being employed by Mojang over the duration of PAX' card, then you still haven't thought about the dragon. Like I'm saying, it's in the same situation as this one, but with even less confirmation from Notch and nothing to back up the fact that it might ever be in-game. If you really want to make that argument, you should have used it on the dragon page by now. MyCraftDev


 * If you read above, I already accounted for #2. Notch is attacked by a Spider in one of the videos. He is not poisoned.  Ergo, it can't be all spiders. --Warlock 14:11, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's 3 admins that say "No". Anyone want to disturb ultradude25 from his slumber in order to reject this page for a fourth time? :/ --HexZyle 14:19, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Who's the third? TheKax isn't an admin... --Warlock 14:22, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh sorry, just checked his userpage. :/ Well, I would go as far to say "Very reliable, credible and reasonable user who seems to have his eye on every wiki page and edits swiftly, accurately and effectively." Note that I edit the wiki 22.5 hours of the day so I see him everywhere. Who else is an admin, btw? --HexZyle 14:29, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * @Hex :PPPP Thanks, lol! Bu they, aren't we forgetting something? Silverfish has an published texture. [[Image:TK.gif]]  | TheKax |   Talk   14:31, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Hex, Minecraft Wiki:Directors is a list of all of the Minecraft Wiki higherups. Verhalthur (talk)(contribs) 14:52, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yoinks (a.k.a thanks) wow, seems like the only admins i have seen (going back 2-3 months) are the three i have mentioned. Oh and @Kax i was talking about how the mob page is subject to frequent edit wars: Wolf category, Scary mob, Endermen as hostile, Human as removed. That's why I added the link to this page, to hopefully draw attention to it and get someone to post up here references if they have them. --HexZyle 14:51, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Neither of the PAX livestream videos have any mention/etc of the blue spider...? -- { Fishrock123 } (Talk) 14:58, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I think someone misheard Notch. I watched it myself and couldn't quite understand him, but I think HexZyle got it right above: "here is the new brightness slider, ....(mumble mumble muffled voice).... new slider."  The dude's finger was over the lens so it's impossible to *see* what he was referring to at the time, hence more confusion :P --Warlock 15:01, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

It's night

Notch: "So it's night now, (dp dp dp) whatever, we have the..."

Recorder: "Yeah"

Notch: "...(mumble sounds like "little") the brightness slider...(mumble sounds like "near the")...field of view slider"

At 27:40 he mentions the brightness slider again, at night time, and is actually seen changing it. Shortly after this, he shows the FOV slider. (I'm assuming anyway, going by the "oooooh" sound he makes when moving his screen around with it on)

Since he mentioned these two functions again, together, later in the video, it's obvious he wasn't talking about blue spiders.

--HexZyle 15:31, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

New video evidence for blue spiders has been uploaded, this time it's a video on youtube as normal spiders are also shown there is a clear difference, it's clearly at a conference and it has a lot of 1.8 only features, while I am sure it could be replicated, the time frame I'd suggest is too small to fake this video. Mcr3sistance

More new video evidence for blue spiders from Mojang CreepersFTW


 * Neither video proves anything. The first video shows the spider's apparent color changing as it moves between poorly- and well-lit areas; for a good portion of the time it's shown it looks to me to just be an ordinary spider, and for the brief time it looks blue, that could easily have been the lighting (interestingly enough, if you pay attention to the lighting around the water and lava, it looks to have a bluish tint near the water). The second video was NOT uploaded by Mojang; the MojangAB channel is not the official Youtube Mojang channel (that would be TeamMojang, and Notch also occasionally does feature announcements on his personal channel, Nizzotch). Blue Spiders are still far from conclusively proven. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 20:49, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually the area lighting where the blue spider is, is orange/yellow. Mcr3sistance

I agree with Mcr3sistance CreepersFTW
 * Looking at that video, it does clearly appear to be blue (and yes, the entire time). It's a dark navy blue (like how normal spiders are currently a dark brown) so it's not as obvious, but it's clearly not a lighting trick.  There is no blue light in the cave, and when the spider gets close to the lava you can *really* tell it's blue thanks to the extra light the lava gives off.  I mean, hell, if this was a "blue light" trick, why isn't anything else blue?  Why is the redstone right behind the spider still red?  --Warlock 00:11, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The image quality is blurry, and the colours are shifted and tinted. You can't properly tell it's blue, to me it looks more like an ordinary spider. And yet again, all the sources provided so far are unofficial. Add official citation! [[Image:TK.gif]]  | TheKax |   Talk   13:54, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I am eternally amused by this guy who seems to think a war is being waged right now. Don't worry guys, no war here.  We're simply waiting for the 1.8 release before adding anything more to the page.  ^^  Verhalthur (talk)(contribs) 19:42, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Conjecture?
--HexZyle 00:56, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Added Cool12309(T 00:58, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I was wondering if an official name has been given. Proof? --HexZyle 01:01, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

The note to Kizzycocoa
Oh yeah, the note is meant to go to kizzy so he/she doesn't just immediatly ban me and then remove the page, sorry about the confusion. Shockman25 01:04, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah ok, that makes alot more sense. Was just gonna say, Kizzycocoa would fume if they saw you typing stuff for them. --HexZyle 01:07, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Deletion of the page
I'm noticing a lot of you blaming me personally for this page's deletion. but, lets go over the facts.

we have 2 images. both can be reproduced easily in 1.7. we have a twitter feed of someone who claims to be staff. we have UNCITED words from notch.

and that's it. the rest is 100% speculation.

until the first or third point is solved, the page will stay deleted. try to ask them on twitter. but we need official Mojang confirmation, not the word of a random person, claims of what Notch said and easily copied images.

Were this ANY wiki, this page will be deleted. this is fact. end of. I have left a MENTION on the mobs page, but that is all it will get until confirmation.

remember, we can restore deleted pages. it is there. we could get it back with a few clicks if it turns out to be true. until it has been confirmed, that's not going to happen. I am proceeding to lock the main Blue Spider page for excessive spam. any further issues can be mentioned on this talk page.

and, if you have an issue with this decision, please contact any other moderator you wish. but they will say the same. --Kizzycocoa 10:31, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * also, I'm not a girl. it clearly states on my user page I am a guy. :T --Kizzycocoa 10:32, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

(Looks at page history) Wow, never knew you could lock pages that don't even exist :O Oh, I looked at the mobs page, you just deleted the Blue Spider from the Planned section...I had mentioned it in the Potential section because I thought there might be an edit war over it (like there was for the silverfish :/) --HexZyle 11:09, 29 August 2011 (UTC) EDIT: I'm currently watching the 1 hour video recording of Notch at PAX to ensure that there was no mention of it (and to add little interesting things around the wiki that others missed :D) --HexZyle 11:11, 29 August 2011 (UTC) EDIT2: Hmm, even though Notch entered 2 abandoned mineshafts in two seperate videos, he didn't mention anything about blue spiders. However, he was more interested in running around the place randomly rather than sitting still and showcasing new features. --HexZyle 13:42, 29 August 2011 (UTC) EDIT: Lol, everyone is quoting that sentance :D --HexZyle 22:36, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * What's great about unconfirmed features is that when 1.8 is released, we can add things like this. It is merely a question of when we add them.  To those that insist on remaking this page: don't get worried over not having this page for a month or two, we'll find out eventually.  Verhalthur (talk)(contribs) 13:14, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * this is exactly the point. they get scared we'll lose any bit of information, when really, we have all the information already saved. somewhere. --Kizzycocoa 13:46, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Fine whatever, When 1.8 comes out, and if blue spiders come out too, then that's when I'll put up the page. Shockman25 14:27, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I was at PAX and this spider does exist I'm more intrested in the endermen and the huge mushrooms than i am the spiders though but seeing as the fuss this is making i thought I'd add mine to the name of people that can confirm they saw themDesacobose 20:12, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Move to Poisonous Spiders?
As seen in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI4ZBrvkCZw and mentioned by Notch at Pax, the spiders that spawn in Abandoned Mine Shafts are clearly different in that only they poison you, but as seen from the videos, they are not blue; that is merely the way the lighting looks. -- { Fishrock123 } (Talk) 21:25, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually it would be Venomous, not poisonous. Poisonous implies they are not safe to eat :) --Warlock 21:29, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * They were called "poison spiders" in that video. So I'm going to assume that's what notch/mojang told them they were; in which case, would we not keep the "official" name? Either way, they are not blue. -- { Fishrock123 } (Talk) 21:32, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Well "poisonous" isn't correct though :) Barring notch actually mis-naming it, if we're going to go with a somewhat speculative name, might as well be accurate :P I can't see the video right now but I can see how there could have been confusion there with the color.


 * Personally my guess though is that ultimately they just haven't designed a unique model for them yet, so they just used the spider one in the mean time. This is obviously wild speculation, but I would think they'd make them look a little different for the final release.  Of course, that's just me guessing here. --Warlock 21:38, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

View of Potential Evidence/Debunks
Here is all of our possible evidence, explained in the most reasonable way I can:

1. Screenshots by "PAX" staff

Debunk Claim: This person is not part of Mojang Staff and could have easily created a hoax in 1.7

Reason Against Debunk: Food and Experience bars are present onscreen, this would be somewhat challenging to recreate in 1.7, but possible

2. Reference of Blue Spiders on IGN:

"Spiders are already a nuisance in the world of Minecraft, but now they poison their prey."

Debunk Claim: All spiders are now poisonous

Reason Against Debunk: Notch/Another player is attack by many spiders in PAX videos, they never appear to poisoned the player.

3. 1.8 Preview Video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI4ZBrvkCZw&feature=player_embedded

Debunk Claim: The lighting is making the spider look blue

Reason Against Debunk: I actually agree that this may be a lighting issue HOWEVER, they call the spider a "new spider" and a "poisonous spider" (listen around 1:06)

Shockman25 04:35, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * about the 1.8 preview video, the camera is adjusting its hue to the lava light. (the reason why the lava appears so bright) Once the spiders leave the water it's obvious that they are just plain black. And the person "states" that blue spiders causes poisoning yet there is no proof where he got that information from and since he is on creative, he can't prove it there either. Where he got that idea is unknown. --HexZyle 06:30, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, and I'd like to add that both videos are from unofficial sources. [[Image:TK.gif]]  | TheKax |   Talk   13:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * So you're saying that the 'unofficial source' kidnapped Notch and had him do this entire thing for him? If Notch confirms it, it's supposed to be enough for you. MyCraftDev


 * I kinda agree with the last two comments... the videos are unofficial and the footage was on creative mode. Therefore it is undetermined that it is actually a genuine blue spider or just an original spider. CreepersFTW 15:53, 30 August 2011


 * Creative mode does not change anything. -- { Fishrock123 } (Talk) 15:22, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I think I have found more evidence... the guy who proclaimed that blue spiders are going to be added in 1.8 is friends with Mojang if you look closely to his Twitter. http://twitter.com/#!/Protato_ CreepersFTW 16:36, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * That is not evidence for Blue Spiders nearly so much as commentary on his relationship with Mojang. 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:42, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Even so... it notifies that he was at PAX at the time, so it could be possible that the spider can be genuine. [CreepersFTW|CreepersFTW] 18:45, 30 August 2011


 * It's most likely he was mistaken. Have there been any other accounts of this blue spider? How many people were at PAX? --HexZyle 19:32, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * A few more guys in his Twitter stated that they saw the spider, also one stated that his character got poisoned but though I'm not sure if it's true or not... Some other guy on here stated that there is one and IGN stated that there are venomous spiders... though a lot of people thought that those were the original that they're referring to but I looked on an IGN vid of Notch playing 1.8 Minecraft and a spider attacked him but he didn't get poisoned at all in the vidCreepersFTW
 * one stated that his character got poisoned but though I'm not sure if it's true or not...
 * congratulations. you've just discredited everything you just said. well done.
 * I personally think this page should be deleted and protected against recreation. it has NO foundation. it's only due to this ragewar that this is still here.
 * and ragewars have no citations.--Kizzycocoa 20:42, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you really not believe the video up there? How come the pages for Stone Brick (and co.) were added off one screenshot when for all we knew they could've been the new cobblestone textures? I personally think the page should stay. It's clear from the video that the spiders look different, and I can't remember the location in the IGN preview video but about half-way through [] you can clearly see the normal spiders. Elite6809 (talk) (forum) 21:14, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That above statement was probably the most uninformed statement on this page. Watch any PAX video and you will see that the cobblestone texture has not changed. --HexZyle 22:34, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Surely if some people say that Blue Spiders are just Normal Spiders that look blue because of the lighting issue... then surely the Zombies, Creepers, Slimes, etc. should be affected too. CreepersFTW


 * Look, IGN stated something about spiders and poison. While they may not be blue nor even a new mob, at the least spiders will randomly poison players or a new mob, because the spiders from PAX didn't poison. Cool12309(T 21:55, 30 August 2011 (UTC)