User talk:Wynthyst/Archive 4

A question
Being the leader of the Minecraftwiki Chinese translation, can I be an admin of it when it is finished? I would also like Papermoon, Fortomxq, Jarv and Craft Lawrence to be admin because they are good contributors.

Thanks, Edenapple


 * Yes Edenapple, when the time comes, you will definitely get an admin position. I'm glad to see you guys are thinking about this ahead of time. It makes it much easier. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  14:04, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Another question
How many pages do you have to translate to have a separate Chinese Minecraftwiki?

Thanks, Edenapple

I did as you asked and lost the edit!
after the edit I did to the environment template you asked me to only make changes after a discussion, so when I had the Idea of updating the Minecraft template I made a version in my page and suggested on the discussion JUST SO THAT 6 MIN BEFORE I FINISH SOMEONE WILL UPDATE THE TEMPLATE WITHOUT ASKING NOBODY! really? that is what I get for following what you ask me?--Yurisho 19:50, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Aw Yurisho.. edit conflicts suck. That's part of being on a wiki though. Did they do it right? When that happens hit your back button and you can copy your edit and then re-edit the page. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  20:19, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Well the placement was bad(the end of the template instead of the start) and the web version is not listed duo to it being called "Systems" and not "Game Versions" as I suggested, so it's not bad enough to call another edit...--Yurisho 21:42, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Dynamic Page Lists
Hi, I've been trying to sort out mods recently and think that dynamic page lists would be a good idea, but the code for DPL doesn't work, so I'm guessing it's not installed on this wiki.

I think lists like this would be really nice for organising mods, texture packs, mobs, blocks etc. especially with the huge numbers of mods and texture packs that are constantly being released and updated. A nice example from the Guild Wars Wiki uses a skills template and has a great many skill list pages: Skill template and Skill list. Now I'm not sure if it's possible or who has the ability to do this but I thought I'd bring the possibility up and see if someone can do anything! St Lucretia 08:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid we are not allowed to use the DPL extension at this time. While I would love to see it used, it creates too many problems on the server, as well as poses a security risk that Curse is not willing to allow. As painful as it's been, I've had to learn to live without it. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  10:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's an awful shame, I know there are potential performance issues but its possible to limit DPL use to just a handful of protected pages. I guess just using categories is the best solution for now though. St Lucretia 21:08, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

loop limit (continuation)
despite the tech team claimed otherwise, the loop limit wasn’t raised at all
 * All I can tell you is that when I addressed this issue to the tech team they told me it had been raised to the limit they were willing to raise it to. If that means it was left at 100, then that's the limit they are willing to raise it to. I understand your frustration, you wish to do something and it's not possible because of someone else's decision. It sucks.. but please don't shoot the messenger. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  22:37, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don’t :) But “raised” means to me that it was actually increased by a positive number.
 * And I was only angry because I thought you hadn’t read what i wrote, but you obviously just use the term “raise” if the amount of raising is Zero. I mean: If they thought that they couldn’t raise it, they would have told you that, instead of “OK, we raised it, happy looping”.
 * I think they made a mistake without noticing it, and told you it was done, while in truth, nothing happened.
 * Would you please give me an email address from one of them or ask them if it was really raised? – Flying sheep 22:47, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Redstone_circuits
I have noticed in-game that using design B of the D Flip Flops section has a bit of an error when the input is 0 and the user activated the edge trigger. It sets the output to 1 for a brief moment sometimes before going back to 0. I'm not sure where to post this as I was hoping to find a discussion area for that topic but couldn't find one.
 * Talk:Redstone circuits and sign your talk page posts with 4 tildes :D -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  06:11, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Some Things
Hi Wyn, I have three technical problems in the Wiki:

1. Some users have to log in twice, until the password is being accepted. Why?

2. Please change the user rights back to "user must first click on Preview." (nopreviewrequire excluded) Some are too stupid to look at themselves.

3. If LukiGamer send me an e-mail, I get nothing. Technical e-mail I get.

thanks for answers, -- Oliver Scholz  de.Wiki Admin 12:38, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you are having issues. The nopreviewrequire will not be reenabled, as it was a community decision to remove it. Remember settings to the German wiki affect the English and Dutch wiki as well. I will look into the login and email problems. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  20:10, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I know it's changing everywhere and it was a community decision. But the practice show that's don't work everytime. If someone work a lot, he can get the group nopreviewrequire. Am I thinking wrong? -- Oliver Scholz  de.Wiki Admin 16:04, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that you have to take it to the general community, you can't simply say "reenable it" because you don't feel it's working. I think you will find the English community does not want it reenabled. I personally don't feel it was working the way intended when it was installed. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  20:12, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you know anything about the login-problem now? -- Oliver Scholz  de.Wiki Admin 18:41, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

How do I make a "subpage" of my talk page?
You left a note on my "talk" page saying that I should make a "subpage". I am too much of a newb to know how. Please tell me how. thanks.

Daddii 14:45, 12 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for creating the page.
 * Daddii 16:19, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Curse TOS rant
Hey Wynthyst, I've just posted a rant on my userpage concerning the Curse TOS that I'd encourage you to read, and forward the issues I note on to Curse's legal counsel for consideration. Please please please correct me if I'm laboring under any false or mistaken pretenses, and don't hesitate to ask for clarifications or further explanation. Cheers! =) 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 20:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)


 * You automatically hold copyright to anything you develop/contribute on any Curse website. Meaning YOU can reuse it anywhere you wish. While I understand this type of licensing is rather foreign to wiki editors, in a lot of ways it gives us more protection. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  03:02, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * No, I understand the concept of authors' rights reasonably well (though my understanding is more of an "intuitive" one, rather than one based in any in-depth legal knowledge). I was trying to drive at the idea that, as currently worded (and given that I only skimmed it instead of doing an in-depth reading, and that I don't have expertise in the area anyways), the Curse TOS gives the impression that contributors are agreeing to relinquish their rights over their contributions to Curse; if it confused me, I'd wager there're plenty of others who would also be confused about it. It'd be cool seeing some sort of FAQ that helps explain just what the TOS does and doesn't mean in this area. ;) 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 03:15, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I can understand this Dino. The way this has worked (to date) in regards to the wikis is it gives Curse the power to act on behalf of the community regarding protection of our content. The Terms of Service were written before Curse got into wiki hosting with things more like the add-ons that are available from the main website. I want you to be comfortable contributing because your contributions are valuable to this community. I would like you to see something that I'm dealing with atm... not only has this site just taken all of the minecraft wiki style templates, they are actually encouraging their community to take content directly from the Terraria Wiki  vs . There is no attribution, there is no nothing.. I don't mind having competitors, I'm confident in our communities to provide a superior product, but I DO mind competitors that steal ideas, (style/design/function) and content without so much as a please or thank you. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]]  talk  03:28, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * That is a problem, indeed (though we're not free of it ourselves; currently we have templates such as Navbox which have been copied from Wikipedia without attribution). Reusing templates (with proper attribution, of course) should be actively encouraged, particularly if it means another wiki (which may not even have contributors with the necessary technical expertise) will not have to spend days, weeks, or even months developing their own version, but for a competing wiki to copy actual article content (whether or not attribution is given) just shows laziness on their part and is a good reason to avoid them.
 * All this being said, seeing the TOS updated to provide for the wiki model (and possibly even allowing the wikis to be licensed under Creative Commons or an equivalent free license) would be a nice improvement, in particular providing clarification for anyone (like myself) who worries about such matters. =) In the meantime, would I be free to license my contributions under Creative Commons or release them into the public domain (as I do with my Wikipedia contributions)? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 04:40, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I understand that, and have recommended it. I however do not have control of the decisions. I have discussed CC licensing and in most cases, it's been rejected, or been used in conjunction with the Curse ToS. I don't see this changing any time soon. Bottom line is that Curse is a for profit organization and they are not going to relinquish control of the content of their sites. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  05:02, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * While it's not necessarily the preferable state of affairs, I suppose I can definitely live with it nonetheless now that I know I *am* allowed to reuse my contributions elsewhere. ;) Are others able to similarly reuse my contributions if I say I'm fine with it, or is that basically just another facet of the whole CC/TOS thing? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 05:24, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I totally understand Dino, and again, keep in mind that the Curse ToS was written more with the thought of things like add-ons in mind, the types of things that could potentially be "marketed" elsewhere. The sharing of information that is pretty much the cornerstone of wiki standards, is still there. You own everything you personally develop here, you can choose to do with it whatever you want. The issue comes in when a 3rd unrelated party comes in without asking or being given permission to use this stuff for the most part verbatim and create rival sites with it. In many cases these types of incidents are for no other purpose than making money without doing the work. I believe the ToS gives us as a community a much stronger arm in this regard. Again, I have discussed with Curse the switch to a CC based license and they would prefer it this way. That's as far as I can go other than to try to reassure you that Curse is not going to come after you for using stuff you developed on their wikis somewhere else, unless you are violating the rights of other editors by doing so, but neither are they going to allow another entity to wholesale steal their styles, content and traffic. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  06:38, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, I understand all that now, and thanks for your patience in explaining it all to me (more than once, since I didn't really make it clear that I understood on your first explanation). =) In light of this, I'm going to replace the rant on my userpage, and I'd like your (and, if necessary, Curse's) okay/feedback before I actually post it. I was thinking something along the lines of:
 * "I give my permission for my [ Template namespace contributions], as well as any CSS and Javascript I write, to be used on other wikis, provided that attribution is given (this attribution must consist at minimum of a hyperlink pointing to the original page on this wiki, either on the copied page itself or in the edit summary for the edit in which it is copied). I also encourage other editors (both on this and other Curse-operated wikis) to adopt a similar policy in regards to their own Template namespace contributions."
 * It would simplify matters to a certain extent if I were able to state that the edits can be treated as though they had a CC license (in which case I would probably change "I give my permission for my ... contributions ... to be used on other wikis" to something like "I give my permission ... to be used on other wikis as though they were licensed with a Creative Commons-compatible license"), but it doesn't look like that's allowed at this time (if Curse doesn't want to CC-license the wikis, they probably also don't want any content being treated as though it were, right?). Do you have thoughts or suggestions on the wording, or is any part of the message perhaps off-base?
 * One last thought (and, thus, one more way for me to try your patience =D ), have you pointed out that there are NonCommercial variants of the CC licenses (CC-by-NC, CC-by-NC-SA, CC-by-NC-ND)? 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 07:45, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * As the owner of the original copyright, you are free to apply any license you choose on items that are the sole developer of. You are also free to license any image with any license you choose as long as it doesn't counter a preexisting copyright... i.e. you can't relicense a mojang image. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  07:52, 16 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Aah, cool (and I can't believe I'd forgotten about images/files). =D How does User:Dinoguy1000 look? =) 「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 17:01, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks fine Dino. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  17:04, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Why is there a delete tag on the classic server protocol page?
I copied over my argument from the talk page:

So this is the reason for deletion: "Reason: Suggests official support for custom servers (which is truly only what uses this) even though it's information of the actual client/server - otherwise custom servers already know. This is, to be honest, kind of pointless. Also, there's none for Beta (and don't ever see the need)". First off, where does it suggest "official support for custom servers"? I can only see a documentation, and not a suggestion. Second, "custom servers already know." What about the the people who don't know this? If they don't know, how will they find out? Third, how is this pointless? It's not spam, vandalism, a story, etc. Finally, "none for Beta". Please pay attention to the title. This is for Classic, not Beta. People still play Classic. So why should this be deleted? All of the deletion reasons are worthless! Also, one last thought, how is this not supported by Mojang? Drenay 22:45, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Put your arguments on the associated talk page Drenay. You don't need to convince me, you need to convince him :P -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  22:47, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Templates in Programs and Editors/hu
So..recently I began translating Programs and editors into Hungarian as a project member. The problem is, the template needed to display the chart is Programs and editors/header and Programs and editors/entry. In the English version it wasn't a problem, but in Programs and editors/hu, the /header code displays as Programs and editors/hu/header, and the wiki does not recognize the template. (Same with entry.) I tried rewriting it to Programs and editors/entry, but it doesn't accept it. I also tried checking other wikis, but they have their own templates. Do you have any ideas how to get that template working? (By the way: the Hungarian project is doing quite well, almost every main page link is an existing link and we have, like, 65 pages. When can we get a subdomain?) TunSha 09:50, 28 June 2011 (UTC) You might have to wait a little until people vote. Stay tuned, I'll get you the names ASAP. ** Also, the Crafting Table grid, how are we supposed to make the images link to the Hungarian article? Do we have to upload every image again? Thanks
 * That's why you aren't suppose to translate templates. Has the Hungarian translating team chosen their administrators? I need a Lead admin, and at least 2 others. Get me those names, and I will request your subdomain. Leave the templated pages until you get the subdomain. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  10:44, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, so you agree to leave that page as it is until we get our subdomain? Kay, get right on choosing the admins with the community.
 * Umm..Wynthyst, I have some questions by the way. So I heard we have to make another profile on the other language wiki that isn't autoconfirmed yet. How are we supposed to create the main page then?

Tun Sha HUN(talk/ contribs) 16:52, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * When the subdomain is created, all pages from Category:Hungarian translation and all templates used on those pages will be automatically imported, as well as all images. There will be no page creation restrictions (those have been lifted here as well) and for those users who are assigned as Admins, you are automatically added to Autoconfirmed. But by the time the subdomain is announced, all the mainpage configs and stuff will already be installed. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  16:57, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

''We voted with the Hungarian team. I'm the lead admin and the three others are KunaiFire, Icguy and LeGrund.'' Tun  Sha HUN(talk/ contribs) 06:12, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I have requested the subdomain be created. Our team has added it to their job queue and I anticipate it will be done by early next week. Until then, continue with your translations. When the subdomain is ready, I will import all files in Category:Hungarian translation, all templates used on any of the pages, and all images. I will do the initial configuration of your main page, and then announce the opening of the new wiki. At that time, you will all need to get registered on the new wiki (We can't import user data), and I will set the appropriate administrative rights. From then on, it will be up to you guys to complete the translation cleanup, and the rest of the translations as well as staying current with new updates, etc.... Congratulations on the great job you have done. I will be adding the 4 of you to the Director's group here. Please add the Director's page to your watchlist. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  06:17, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

All GIF files gone
The wiki has deleted pretty much every GIF file, the file's page is still intact, but the file itself is gone... anyway to recover? If you want some examples, just take a look at all the blank files in this category. – ultradude25 ( T at 06:23, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmmmm I will notify the Tech team... not sure how/why that might have happened, but I'll see if there is something they can do about it. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  06:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks. – ultradude25 ( T at 07:40, 29 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Team's looking into it.. they should be restored soon. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  19:08, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Request
In connection with the incidents of vandalism, administrators of Russian section have made the decision to disallow unregistered editing. Please, pass this message to technical experts of Curse. HEKP0H -  ru.Wiki Admin  14:17, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  19:11, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. HEKP0H -  ru.Wiki Admin  19:25, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Abuse filter overblocking
This edit seems to be valid. This one too.– Scaler (t) 14:48, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks Scaler. It's hard sometimes to find the right balance between protecting the wiki from spam and inconveniencing authentic editors. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  14:58, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know. But spam bots and vandals are so annoying… – Scaler (t) 15:11, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

This one again (it seems he didn't read your message >_<). – Scaler (t) 08:17, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * If he does the same again, he can stay blocked. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  08:33, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Spanish and Hungarian interwikis
Totally unrelated, is it possible that you add the interwiki prefixes for the Spanish and Hungarian wikis on the french wiki ? (As admins, we add the rights to do so some times ago, but not anymore…). – Scaler (t) 15:11, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm working on getting that corrected today Scaler. Somehow the permissions got changed when the new footer disclaimer was added. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  15:13, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks ^^ – Scaler (t) 15:17, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Brazilian Translation
Everyone who helped translating the wiki will be kind-of a Curse staff? Like an Intern? And you're brazilian?
 * No, the three you guys choose will simply be community administrators, and no, I'm American. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  23:45, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

The three you guys choose?
On the question I made, you said something about the three you guys choose. I did not understand it and you do speak portuguese? I saw you translating PTBR Pumpkins. Btw, how many pages a project needs to be to have an subdomain? Will ptbr be br.minecraftwiki.net? those subdomains will be accessed by a script that detects which country the user is in?

Also, sorry for new question. I'm on phone now.
 * I don't speak Portuguese, I was replacing an edit that the spam filter blocked by mistake. The primary requirement is that you translate the main page, and all articles that link to it so there are no red links left. It generally ends up that translation projects get their subdomain after translating around 100 pages. I'm not sure exactly what the subdomain will be, the language code is pt-BR for Brazilian Portuguese. As to picking the admins, the community that has asked for and worked on the project will be asked to choose 3 members to act as administrators. They should be people who are committed to making the wiki a success and are familiar with how MediaWiki works. Once the subdomain is created, there will still be a lot of translating work that needs to be done, as well as updating with new information, etc. As for accessing it, there will be a link to it in the "In other languages" section of the left navigation bar. It's up to the community to get the interwiki links applied to all the pages. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  19:44, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Those red links you mean its the red links on the main page?

Template:Elnevezesek
Hi, I'm Icguy, from the Hungarian wiki, and I was just wondering if it's possible to get back the contents of the deleted Template:Elnevezesek, because all the "official" Hungarian expressions and words were in it, and now we don't have a dictionary for this purpose. Of course if you want, we can remove it after copying it into the Hungarian wiki. I think if someone, than you have the rights to do that, since you're (one of?) the head admin(s?) of this wiki :). Thanks for your answer in advance (if you would be so kind as to leave it on my Hungarian talk page, thanks),

Icguy 19:02, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit: Never mind, i've found it in the history of the project page. Icguy 19:13, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Subdomain
We have translated a large number of pages, and the primary requirement for getting a Chinese language subdomain has been completed Minecraft Wiki/ch. Can you add the new chinese wiki? Edenapple 12:17, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
 * There are still so many red links on the mainpage..... Also, I need 3 names for admins. You and 2 others. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  19:00, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Minecraft Wiki Style and Policy Guides
I was thinking that it is about time for Minecraft Wiki to adopt its own policy and style guide pages. There have been a number of discussions in different article talk pages about naming and formatting issues that actually have large repercussions across the wiki, but due to their relatively obscure nature (I mean, why would you look towards Coal (Item) to determine why Iron (Ore) has a parenthetical in the title?), it is difficult to track down and identify the reasoning behind certain changes. I am proposing a number of admin space articles like Article Titles, Manual of Style, What Wikipedia is not, and, more generally, List of Policies. If you give this a thumbs up, I would be happy to take a first shot at creating these pages based on Wikipedia and my own policy/style preferences, and then turn them over to the community to amend prior to acceptance. I know that we already have Minecraft Wiki:Wiki Rules as well as a brief video policy, but I'm thinking that it would be nice to have something a little more conclusive. I would be happy to discuss my ideas over IM, email, or Minecraft Wiki talk as you prefer. --Nick2253 22:25, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The parentheses are called a "disambigulation" title, and that's because the page in question has more than one instance, there is Iron (Ore) and Iron (Block) and Iron (Ingot). I'm not against a style guideline, I thought someone had already started a project to develop one, but I seem to be mistaken. Feel free to create a proposal guideline if you wish, just understand it won't be implemented until it's discussed and agreed on :D -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  22:31, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I know why you would put the parenthetical in the title. My point was that the in-game tool tip for Iron Ore says Iron Ore.  Why we call it Iron (Ore) (with the parentheses) is beyond me.  That's what I was referring to.  And of course, I don't expect the community to take accept my recommendations hook, line, and sinker.  I was just hoping to create a starting point for a more consistent wiki.  I'll throw together a basic project page and I should probably have it up by the weekend.  If you know of anyone who has already started work on a Style and Policy Guidebook, I'd love to get in touch with them.  That way I'm not starting from ground zero.  --Nick2253 23:19, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Problem with pl-wiki
A week passed from the moment you informed of the decision of problem, but the error with the BOM character has not been fixed. Something strange is happening to the pl-wiki... HEKP0H -  ru.Wiki Admin  14:20, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I have notified the tech department, in fact I did it immediately upon receiving your note. They are shorthanded atm. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  14:21, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Besides, ru-wiki is disabled right now. HEKP0H -  ru.Wiki Admin  17:34, 26 July 2011 (UTC)